Forum Topic

Is the EU good for the planet?

Just watching Sky News where the ex Business Minister is making his case for some sort of dealOne example he gave was that in order to make parts that we make for the Mini in the UK, that one part has to go in and out of the UK FIVE TIMES!So I totally understand the importance of his point, however this is just ONE business example. If things go back and forth so many times before the product is actually finished (freely as no import tax which presumably plays a factor), you do have to wonder what this is doing to the planet don't you?Any thoughts?

Emarisa Battoia ● 2787d25 Comments

whilst carbon emissions are a major problem, the elephant in the room is nuclear waste. The government needs to find underground storage for 1'000'000 tons of nuclear waste that will remain dangerously radioactive for 100'000 years (Times article a few weeks ago). In years to come the world will wake up to the madness that is nuclear power.

Adam Tripp ● 2787d

Did he explain the example? Five times seems a bit excessive but I could see if it was a screw in a small subcomponent from an external supplier that could happen. Raw material>screw>casing>circuit board>engine management chips>engine>car?

Michael Ixer ● 2787d

No he didnt Michael, but your example below doesn't match his exampleYou are talking as though five things had to arrive in the UK before the part be finished. His example was that the actual part had to go in and out of the UK before it could be finished and then fitted to the mini. Which is why i was so surprised. I will try to find the interview to listen again but as i don't have a Sky account i doubt i will be able toBut it doesn't surprise me, as businesses will try to find the cheapest place to do stuff and this is what the EU embraces. I find it, as an example, really upsetting that animals reared across Europe are transported to other countries to be slaughtered and then brought back . But its cheaper for a business. Same same but different

Emarisa Battoia ● 2787d

Actually i have found an article in the Guardian about this. I am sure you all will have valid reasons for supporting this journey, but my question was what is this sort of thing doing to the planet? Could there be ways that more of this sort of thing be done in one country without being seen as protectionist? Where there is a will there is a way :) https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu

Emarisa Battoia ● 2787d

it seems i misheard part of the sentence while getting ready for work. It looks like he meant the part HAD moved around 5 different countries. But my question is still validIs free movement and free business helping to ruin the plant? I think so

Emarisa Battoia ● 2787d

My response was about a part (a screw) being added to progressive sub components that possibly could be assembled in different factories. We are assuming the politician understood what he was talking about. I remember a Northern Ireland minister who was surprised politics there were sectarian and a Brexit minister who didn't realise thge Dover/Calais link was a key supply chain route ... but it's a while since I was involved in IT systems for the manufacturing industry so I could well be out of date ...

Michael Ixer ● 2787d

I understood what you meant Michael, but even with your example in mind.... Is this good for the planet?

Emarisa Battoia ● 2787d

@Emarisa. That's probably a question of whether globalisation or international trade is good for the planet. It probably happens in North American and South East Asian car plants within their trade agreements as well as the EU.

Michael Ixer ● 2787d

Totally agree and this is why i don't like globalisation on the scale that it is nowHowever, America definitely do not preach about global warming and neither do SE AsiaCan't beat them join them should not be the reasoning!

Emarisa Battoia ● 2787d

Michael I am sure you are right. The single market allows this to happen but didn’t invent, promote or foster it in any way. Brexit (esp the no deal version) will interrupt more than the to and fro of car parts, it will interrupt just in time supermarket and pharma deliveries.  It will do nothing to change the importation of fruit fruit and veg from Israel, Chile etc, or fresh flowers from Kenya, all equally wasteful but supported by consumers who take for granted the year round supply of seasonal fruits.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2787d

' It will do nothing to change the importation of fruit fruit and veg from Israel, Chile etc, or fresh flowers from Kenya'.Trading on WTO terms, so favoured by the hard Brexiteers, will surely increase long distance journeys of goods, hence bad for the planet

Jane Carter ● 2787d

Our organic fruit and veg deliveries are supposed to be sourced as close to East Anglia as possible - bananas obviously aren't from the UK (yet)! Otherwise we try and source flood from UK, the Europe, then fair trade if product not grown in Europe.

Michael Ixer ● 2787d

Exactly. So do we really want bananas from Austrralia or fish from China?

Jane Carter ● 2787d

You are kind of side tracking from the question here. But if you like bananas (i dont) then ultimately you are buying them from a hot country. I don't really see your point Jane?The reason i asked this question is because ultimately the people who benefit really from the freedom of movement (parts and people alike) are big business hunting for the cheapest product or person. Zero import duty helps to accelorate this (IMO), at least if you are importing fish from China there is a tax on it making it more expensive and making people question whether they should buy it etc. Along with subsidies (as in the case of the French tomatoes and Africa), no import tax is helping to speed up global warming. IMOIt would be good to hear Mr Carters thoughts on this as i know he is interested in the issues around climate change etcThis was not a EU bashing post btw, more about in our race to the bottom on taxes to gain more trade (all countries are guilty of this); is it harming the planet?

Emarisa Battoia ● 2787d

Well, being flippant, I do want bananas as I like them (very selfish) and they're good for one. Happy to have then from the Canary Islands (not too far away and in the EU, with special status), but often do have to come from further afield ... I'll pass on fish from anywhere, as it's not veggie and overfishing seems to be a problem every where - the EU's record isn't great on that - still, if Farage is on the fisheries committee what can one expect:https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/press-releases/farages-voting-record-on-fishing-makes-mockery-of-new-election-poster/

Michael Ixer ● 2787d

haha....Jane was the one who brought up bananas. I can't stand them. But i do love a pineapple but anything that can be grown or reared in the UK i make sure i buy that option. This off sets the food that has to come from hotter countries (thats how i balance it in my head anyway)However, i am pretty sure that with training and investment alot of the Minis manufacture could take place in one country and may cost the business a bit more but would help reduce damage to the environment

Emarisa Battoia ● 2787d

If it costs the business more that increases the price ... one of the drivers for globalisation has been the desire to push down prices. That's generally been perceived as a consumer demand, but is also driven by the need for organisations to shift more product to increase shareholder returns. That would come close to the original reasons in the 1970s for the labour far left's opposition to joining the European Common Market, which still lives on in some. Was discussing this last night with a friend who is now, like me, pro EU but in his university days in the early '70s wrote a paper as part of his degree as to why the UK shouldn't join the Common Market. Obviously, with the strengthening of workers' rights, and other EU standards many have moved in and changed their views.

Michael Ixer ● 2787d

A friend of mine recently bought an old mobile home and spent a year driving around Europe camping etc before his eldest started school. When they came back they downsized and moved out of London. He said living like that for a year made them realise that as creatures we actually need very little to survive and be happy; we don't need all these things that are thrown at us but we are such silly creatures that if we are told we do then we believe it.I agree that the drive is to keep costs to win consumers and also satisfy shareholders. I also believe that all of this is ruining our planet and actually our happiness. I do not believe that free trade is actually doing any of us any favoursI still don't understand why Mr Carter has not responded as he champions both the EU and climate issues, yet he has been very active on other posts today. ?

Emarisa Battoia ● 2787d

"I still don't understand why Mr Carter has not responded..."What, responding to your posts is compulsory now?

Richard Carter ● 2787d

Why do you take everything as a possible arguement? It may surprise you but i actually wanted to know your thoughts. The reason i wanted to know was not to challenge them, but because i know you are wholly in favour of the EU but also very concerned about climate change. That honestly is the only reason. There is no need for the aggression. Promise

Emarisa Battoia ● 2787d

Fair enough; my thoughts are that the transport of parts across the EU is probably a second-order effect that is small in comparison with the beneficial effect that the EU, acting as a group, can exert against climate change/global warming. I hope that helps?

Richard Carter ● 2787d

OkidokiI guess if that is the case then the same could be said for the stuff being driven around London all the time!

Emarisa Battoia ● 2787d

Hello Emarisa,I do not think that the EU is bad for the planet.  The distance between its members is not big though it would be preferable if goods were moved by train instead.When it comes to overseas trade, as you know, 90% of international trade is done through shipping and it is doing a lot to eliminate gas emissions.  Although I agree that some foodstuff is sent by plane.If we consider that Heathrow is about to be expanded enormously, this on its own will do more damage to our environment than anything else.The other big problem of course is the enormous amount of deforestation happening world wide which is frightening!As far as your question regarding the Mini is concerned, I had not heard about parts being shipped to pillar to post to complete the car, or components of the car. But, as you said, why not build it in one country?  In that case, as Mini is owned by BMW, I suppose it should be built 100% in Germany - regardless of job losses here.Globalisation does not fill me with delight by the way.  If you think that Marks & Spencer's used to make all the garments in the UK but, as a result of globalisation, it was out "outsourced" abroad - with the subsequent loss of quality of the garments they produced (underwear included).

Ivonne Holliday ● 2787d

Ivonne this may surprise you..... But I agree with everything that you have said!

Emarisa Battoia ● 2787d

In response to Adam's comment about nuclear waste, I totally agree.  A geologist friend of mine was asked to do a study on nuclear waste over 30 years ago and came to the conclusion that even if it was dropped to the deepest parts of the ocean, in specially made containers, it would still not or ever be safe.

Bunny Payne ● 2787d