Forum Topic

David Lammy

I have a huge amount of respect for David Lammy, and he's made some brilliant speeches in the HoC. But his comparison of Rees-Mogg and Johnson with Hitler is, simply, wrong. Quite apart from the problem of Godwin's law, it's a fatuous comparison. Rees-Mogg is a perfect example of someone who is both clever and well-educated, and utterly foolish, and Johnson is a charlatan who fails to disguise his self-promotion by covering it with silly historical misanalogies. But neither of them is a Hitler, and it damages Lammy's case to make such a link.I'm reluctant to quote anything Rees-Mogg says, but can't help agreeing with his tweet that “I feel sorry for Mr Lammy, comparing a Parliamentary ginger group with an organisation and creed that killed six million Jewish people makes him look foolish and his comments unbalanced. It damages his reputation.”Some of the Brextremists (in particular Johnson) have earlier made the comparison between the EU and Hitler and that was idiotic.  It gives me no pleasure to criticise David Lammy for making the same foolish mistake.

Richard Carter ● 2768d12 Comments

Foolish of David Lammy indeed, but he is not the only offender."Dame Margaret Hodge has compared Labour's disciplinary process to Nazi Germany and publicly accused Jeremy Corbyn of being antisemitic.The veteran Labour MP, who is Jewish and lost relatives in the Holocaust, said being investigated by the party after a row with Mr Corbyn had made her feel like "a Jew in Germany in the 30s".She accused her party leader of being on "the wrong side" of the line between being pro-Palestinian and antisemitic and suggested "the cult of Corbynism" had allowed this to happen.The MP was told she faced disciplinary proceedings last month after an furious confrontation over antisemitism in Labour in which she accused Mr Corbyn of being a "racist and antisemite". The investigation was later dropped after she threatened to take the party to court.Labour hit back as the latest row over antisemitism escalated, saying Dame Margaret's comments were "extreme and disconnected from reality".Speaking to Sky News, Dame Margaret compared her treatment by Labour to the actions of the Nazis, suggesting she felt she had been punished for being Jewish.She said: "On the day that I heard they were going to discipline me and possibly suspend me, I kept thinking: what did it feel like to be a Jew in Germany in the 30s? It felt almost as if they were coming for me.""(From The Independent August 16, 2018)

David Ainsworth ● 2768d

People have compared Corbyn to Hitler. I expect that it is a sort of joke:-https://tinyurl.com/y3q2cmjt

David Ainsworth ● 2768d

Richard. It's probably over the top, but some aspects of the ERG are disturbing: meeting with Steve Bannon, describing themselves as "grand wizards", re-tweeting AfD comments, ... Then, considering mainstream Conservatives, we have the way Windrush immigrants have been treated by the current government and what looks like an attempt to skimp on compensation for some of them. We joked in the early 70s: just 'cause you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. Rees-Mogg appears benign but there are perhaps less pleasant aspects of the ERG, and are some them far away from UKIP who have some very dubious characters in tow? Even Nigel Farage is trying to distance himself from them now!

Michael Ixer ● 2768d

Yes, the Hodge comment is beyond the pale, too. And although many of the images in your second post are attempts at humour, they are vile too, Alan Sugar's being especially idiotic.

Richard Carter ● 2767d

Yes, some aspects of the comically misnamed ERG (they're not European, they conduct no research and they can't even operate as a group) are indeed disturbing, particularly retweeting the AfD video.And the wider issue of the government's treatment of the Windrush generation - and not just the Windrush group but the whole "really hostile environment" policy (© Theresa May) - has helped to enable much of the vile racist abuse that's increased of late.

Richard Carter ● 2767d

Incidentally, Newsthump currently has this piece about Mark Francois:Mark Francois named European of the Year for uniting entire continent in agreeing he’s a twatThe bombastic MP from Rayleigh was given the coveted accolade by Brussels for creating a rare feeling of pan-European unity, with every adult in EU countries warm-heartedly agreeing he was an insufferable bellend.  The EU’s commissioner for Cultural Harmony, Sigmund Wilhelms, explained that the award was only given to people who could overcome cultural barriers and identify the common bonds that unite all Europeans, such as disliking jingoistic buffoons who look like a badly infected thumb.He continued, “Although European diversity is to be treasured, it is often too easy to focus on the things that make us different and overlook what we all have in common.  “When Mr Francois read that tedious poem and made childish threats in front of an audience of senile racists, every political leader in Europe, whether right or left, felt the same bewilderment that he was ever elected.”Mr Wilhelms assured the press that the award was not a covert dig at the UK.  “Far from it. Mr Francois has done your country a great service. Along with our utter revulsion at his wobbly jowls spouting childish insults, we all felt deep pity for the UK. A lot of the resentment has vanished and been replaced by sadness that you now live in a world where he is considered a figure worth listening to.”The award will be the first time Mr Francois has received one since his days as a Territorial Army officer where he earned a medal for showing up six weekends in a row and having really clean boots.

Richard Carter ● 2767d

I suspect if you were to look at Germany in the 1920s before Hitler became Chancellor he appeared benign to some Germans (and even in the 1930s there were many Brits who thought the same). At the very least Hitler was an orator who fed on the anger of German people after the Treaty of Versailles and failure of the Weimar Republic government.IMO there is more of a similarity between Hitler and Farage rather than Bojo or Rees-Mogg especially after listening to his speech  to "put the fear of God" into his opponents etc. Watching him speak I can see why Farage can appear attractive to some voters. He plays on people's fears and anger. Under the circumstances it is hardly surprising. The ERG and Conservative hard line Right Wingers, should they break away from their Party as they threaten if EU elections go ahead, would be a natural fit for the Brexit Party. As for Steve Bannon it appears he has his fingers in every pie.

Lucille Grant ● 2767d

@Michael"Even Nigel Farage is trying to distance himself from now!"Farage moved away from UKIP at least a year ago because he didn't agree with the direction the party was going. He actually resigned from the party in December 2018, very soon after Gerard Batten hired Tommy Robinson as an advisor.

Sue Hammond ● 2767d

speaks sense. Five minutes worth watching:https://www.channel4.com/news/lord-michael-heseltine-chilling-similarities-between-1930s-and-current-political-climate

Lucille Grant ● 2767d

Lammy and Rees Mogg formed an unlikely alliance to campaign for justice for the Windrush generation.  There’s good in every politician, even Mark Francois who is probably nice to his mum.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2767d

The Krays were nice to their Mum too

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2767d

There is a 2017 article from the BBC:-"Why does everyone keep making Nazi comparisons?"https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-39266863""Wielding accusations of fascism as an insult doesn't help to get your audience on side - instead, you raise the stakes of the debate, forcing a polarisation between 'good' and 'evil' into a discussion that may have reasonable positions on both sides," says Amanda Moorghen, the [English Speaking Union] group's senior research and resources officer."And it is dangerous:-"The key lies in taking Eden’s reasoning more seriously. He saw Nasser as a new incarnation of Hitler and the nationalising of the Suez Canal as the equivalent of Hitler’s remilitarisation of the German Rhineland 20 years earlier. Historians tend to take this as evidence of Eden’s lack of grip on reality, but his judgement was not so very different from that of others – both before and since." From:-https://theconversation.com/60-years-ago-suez-crisis-set-a-dangerous-pattern-for-western-military-intervention-65966And, of course:-"Blair likens Saddam to Hitler""LONDON, England -- Comparing Saddam Hussein to Adolf Hitler, British Prime Minister Tony Blair says he would be pushing for Iraq's disarmament "irrespective of the position of America."" (CNN March 1st, 2003)We just keep on using it. It is like playing the ace.

David Ainsworth ● 2767d