Forum Topic

farage v marr

Farage probably made many more Brexit voters, Marr made a real mess of things.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2740d37 Comments

I didn't see the whole interview but from the clip I saw on the news site Farage seems to be avoiding anything other than Brexit which confirms my understanding that he, the Brexit Party and from what I've heard from them so far, CUP, have no consistent, solid policies  on anything other than Brexit. I want to vote for a party that has specific policies on health, education, transport,  environment, animal welfare, renewable energy, cyber bullying and disinformation, etc; my preference is to remain but if we leave it'll just mean some economic and at worst more violence/war in the world until we decide to rejoin a European organisation. Farage just came over as a loud mouthed bully, at least Rees-Mogg has manners and charm.

Michael Ixer ● 2740d

Not a lot of charm there this morning!

Caroline Whitehead ● 2740d

You're right Caroline. I met Marr when he came to an open day at PHS and a more charmless man would be hard to find.

Sue Hammond ● 2740d

The Marrs live in Primrose Hill and his wife works for the Guardian.

Martine Guy ● 2740d

I'm left wondering the relevance of "his wife works for the Guardian."

Richard Carter ● 2740d

Farage has always made it clear that this is a one-policy party.  He's is only highlighting the mess and asking people to refocus.  I don't think we will be asked to vote for him as PM.

Bunny Payne ● 2740d

At least Andrew Marr managed to keep his temper in the face of Nigel Farage's rudeness and bluster.

Caroline Whitehead ● 2740d

I could not watch Farage this morning on Marr but I have forced myself to do so on iPlayer.  I do not think it was the best interview Marr has done but Farage was quite obnoxious, if not rude.I am sure Farage has a large following and, although he said he has no interest in being PM, I cannot believe a word he says.  Sad, but true.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2740d

Michael.  Totally agree with all of your wants from a political party.  My particular problem is, the EU has the final say and can meddle with an issue peculiar to a certain member state,not only UK, and with no understanding whatsoever of local  desires or dislikes of member state, and has the decisive last word.17 million plus who think similarly consequently want outAll the intellectual arguments or bullying will not change our point of viewHowever Theresa May presents it publicly she will always be a remainerFarage is our beacon of hope. He only needs one objectiveA clean Brexit from the suffocating EU

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2740d

My issue is, although I accept the EU has many faults,  as a senior member of it the UK can and has influenced many of its decisions. Most importantly, after centuries of waging wars, northern, western and central Europe has had its longest ever period of peace. If it's so bad it's interesting that countries in the last area of Europe recovering from war, the Balkans, are keen to join. (Only the Ukraine and Russia are still effectively ar war.) Unfortunately we were badly let down by Cameron in his EU negotiations and foolhardy attempt to save the Tory party by instigating a referendum; Mrs May has compounded that with her incompetent, partisan attempts at implementing Brexit. As far as Farage is concerned I believe a stock/commodity broker like him pretending to be a man of the people is entirely based on a fraudulent fantasy. He and his wealthy accomplices see and seek the profits for themselves, just as his friend Trump and his cronies are. I'm just very sad so many people are taken in by the bright lights (if that's what Farage is considered) of bling guiding them to disaster. We should be focusing on climate change and the environment along with supporting education and health. Brexit is a delaying distraction. 

Michael Ixer ● 2740d

I agree with you Michael.  Peace in Europe for over 70 years should not be discarded or taken for granted.I also disagree that Europe is the problem or that it is imposing things on us.  Our MEPs have voted for or against them.  I would, however, perhaps agree that Brussels needs reorganizing.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2740d

"the EU has the final say and can meddle with an issue peculiar to a certain member state,not only UK, and with no understanding whatsoever of local  desires or dislikes of member state, and has the decisive last word."
I wish you could explain this, as it is simply something I do not recognise. How, exactly, has the EU "meddled" in any issues in the way you have claimed? Even one example would help.

Richard Carter ● 2739d

There was an item in the Times in January saying that the Treasury rejected ideas for an online sales tax in a drive to help the High St on the grounds that it would violate EU state aid rules.In 1985 the Commission took the UK government to the ECJ because we weren't imposing VAT on spectacle and contact lenses. I remember mentioning this to a consultant at the Western Ophthalmic where I was a patioent at the time. She said sadly "we [the ophthalmology profession]  tried to fight it.As the cost of spectacle lenses increases with the strength and complexity of the prescription, I have paid a lot in taxes for being foolish enough to suffer from degenerative myopia. Of course, successive UK governments should just have told Brussels to buzz off. I'll refrain to adopting the language of Term Verhofstadt.

Elizabeth Balsom ● 2739d

The Brexit Party was co-founded by Farage to fight for Brexit to be implemented. The clue is in the title. A few months ago when it became highly likely that the EU elections would take place Farage started to recruit like-minded candidates to fight them. These candidates include wealthy entrepreneurs, journalists, writers, Doctor, retired teacher, former Royal Marine, a retired Rear Admiral and even the former Director General of the British Chambers of Commerce. A very wide cross section of society, but all united with one purpose.It is expected that after the EU elections Farage will take the Party forward to fight the next GE, which is when its manifesto will be revealed. However Farage probably won't call it a 'manifesto' because he says the word is tainted and associated with political lies. The process of getting a candidate into Parliament has already started. Mike Greene, a self-made wealthy businessman and Brexit Party candidate, is standing in the by-election in Peterborough, his home town.

Sue Hammond ● 2739d

Elizabeth Balsom makes two points:
(1) "There was an item in the Times saying that the Treasury rejected ideas for an online sales tax..." The article can be found here: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/online-sales-tax-to-help-save-high-street-falls-foul-of-eu-dvjs8v52k (paywall); it says that the reason for the rejection was that the proposal "would fall foul of EU rules ... any such tax would breach the bloc’s state aid rules." In other words, we would have broken a rule that we had already signed up to.  (2) The issue of VAT on spectacle lenses: this is a complex issue and reducing it to a simple denial oversimplifies it. EB's letter to the FT (https://www.ft.com/content/bad1794e-5c82-11e9-9dde-7aedca0a081a) was comprehensively demolished both is a comment by ywesterfield in a comment below the letter and in a later response from Andrew Mitchell (https://www.ft.com/content/de9a8b0a-6046-11e9-a27a-fdd51850994c).

Richard Carter ● 2739d

VAT rates are almost entirely a national decision not a Brussels one. The UK has always been free to set any rate on any goods or services at the level it wants. You may remember VAT went from 17.5% to 20% on nearly everything back in 2011. A UK decision made by our own government.  VAT on selected products can be reduced - by the UK govt. I do accept it is not only a horrendously complex tax and one created under EU guidelines but you can’t blame Brussels for the VAT rate on specs. It’s all on the HMRC website, summarised on Wikipedia

Jonathan Callaway ● 2739d

Going back to Barbara Shillabeer's original comment, this comment is striking:
"All the intellectual arguments or bullying will not change our point of view."
Leaving aside the falsity of "bullying" (there is none: if people disagree with you, Barbara, that constitutes discussion, not bullying), it's depressing to read that "all the intellectual arguments" will not change your mind. If you won't listen to people's arguments, what's the point of contributing to a discussion forum if all you're prepared to do is to say, in effect, "This is my view and I'm not prepared to listen to anything that contradicts it"?

Richard Carter ● 2739d

Back to topic.I didn't see any rudeness from either party, just a robust confrontation. Marr was rather boring by dragging up historical criticisms levelled at Farage, this frustrated him so he fought back. A wasted opportunity to explore Farage's present political situation, not what has passed. Marr is past his sell by date in my opinion.

Sue Hammond ● 2739d

Interesting observation after the Centrica AGM this morning: no mention of Brexit  apart from one shareholder question, but lots about climate change (and Centrica's falling share price and directors' bonuses). Question about impact of Brexit on Centrica; answer: energy is a global business, most supplies ared from outside of the EU (Russia, Norway, US, Middle East, etc) except (1) boiler maintenance - possible interruption of spare parts supplies from Germany (get one's boiler serviced before October?) and (2) Ireland - where Centrica is the larger supplier. In discussion with UK government about dealing with cross border pipes. They didn't say directly but I wonder, as both parts of Ireland are currently in the EU if they are treated as one unit? I'm sure Mr Farage has an answer for resolving that one? 

Michael Ixer ● 2739d

An FT reader. Well done!

Elizabeth Balsom ● 2739d

Jonathan, I realise I can't blame Brussels for the VAT rate, but I can blame the Commmission for coming up with the idea of imposing VAT on spectacle lenses and taking the UK to the ECJ because we weren't doing so. One could hardly argue they're a discretionary item if you need them to walk downstairs safely, just to function. What on earth were those bureaucrats thinking of.In 1975 I voted to remain in the EEC, but if I had known what the Commission would do ten years later, I would have followed the advice of Peter Shore and Tony Benn.To set my argument in context. The RNIB website defines "high myopia" as a prescription of -6 and above. Mine is >-15. Even professionals gulp at this.

Elizabeth Balsom ● 2739d

I need glasses too and have worn them since I was a student.  I ca't say I had actually noticed what the VAT element on my new glasses was, just that Specsavers had a decent offer at the time - and I get free eye tests nowadays.Here is a BBC explainer https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36430504.  I am not sure I am that much clearer on VAT even after this!  But I do note that VAT rate changes at EU level require unanimity amongst the 28 member countries, so I assume the UK Govt did not use its veto when the rules were set - in the context of creating a level playing field within the Single Market.That rather suggests any argument should be with our Westminster friends rather than our Brussels ones.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2739d

re comment is striking .Just following your example Mr Carter. There are 2 remainers on here that have clarity and understanding of situations, who have very obviously taken pains to assess all situations and angles.  I take note of what they say even though being an ignorant Brexiteer I don't always understand. They are also polite and sympathetic to people's concerns. Both of them do more than quote the Guardian.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2739d

With reference to being rude and charmless, I consider the Liberal's election flyer to be positively both obscene and insulting to more than half of the electorate.  Bollocks to Brexit is crude and vulgar.  On reflection, I suppose they were only following Bercows car sticker lead

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2739d

Hello Barbara,I have not seen that flyer.  The one posted through my door a few days ago just said "We are the Remain party".Hand in heart, I think the whole thing is going so pear-shaped it is worrying if not terrifying.  I assume the cross-party talks were called with TM's expectation that she would put options on the table that everybody had to agree to.  On the other hand, I assume Labour thought the same with their expectations.  It is such an incredible mess that, at the rate we are going and come 2050, agreement will still not be reached.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2739d

Hello Sue,I saw rudeness from Farage and stubbornness from Marr.  In all, not the finest hour for either of them.There is a saying that "a leopard does not lose its spots".  I see Farage a bit like this.  To say the recent past should not be brought up, why?  It is standard interview procedure.  Three years (nearly) since the referendum, Farage was involved with UKIP.  He then left.  He now created a new party called Brexit.  I cannot, in all honesty, believe that Farage has changed his views completely (from a Brexiteer's point of view).  I felt he wanted to trumpet his new party and leave everything else behind which is not altogether realistic, let alone honest.His very recent views on a second referendum have changed as much as the British weather.All in all, every politician is fighting his corner, not for the UK, but for themselves.  Very sad but very true.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2739d

Looking at the paper coming through the door the KibDems seem to have stopped using the Pimlico Plumbers view on Brexit. In practice, thanks to the Sex Pistols (and John Mortimer), there was a court case that determined the B word was not obscene:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Mind_the_Bollocks,_Here%27s_the_Sex_Pistols

Michael Ixer ● 2739d

Lucky you, Jonathan, for getting a good deal at Specsavers.  When your prescription is off the scale those offers aren't available, and it takes at least three weeks for the glasses to be made up. I remember, years ago, Dolland & Aitchison put in a special order for me with Nikon in Japan. A few weeks back I noticed that the opticians on the corner of Disraeli Rd had an offer for prescriptions up to -4. If only.I readily agree that the Westminster govt. is a lot to blame (and I've written to every MP for Putney, Conservative and Labour since I discovered the tax) but the Treasury brushed my concern aside. I only found out about the VAT because decades ago I used to go to a lovely, caring ophthalmologist in Harley St, and his bills for my contact lenses split out VAT. When he died I threw myself on the mercies of the NHS.But I still can't get my head around bureaucrats who think that spectacle lenses should be taxed in the first place. They're not a discretionary, luxury  item.

Elizabeth Balsom ● 2738d

If I've understood the answers to your FT letter (and taxation is a complex area, far beyond my comfort zone), the point is that lenses aren't taxed if they're purchased at the same time as the eye test, they're not liable to VAT, because they're recognisably a health thing. But if, as increasingly happens now with people's ability to shop around, they are purchased separately, they become non-health items because, I suppose, there's no way to link them with the health aspect (the eye test itself). If that's right, it's understandable - but entirely unfair from the point of the view of the customer, of course.

Richard Carter ● 2738d

Just checked on Google as I'm sure even if associated with a test I've paid VAT on glasses. VAT is payable on the frames and lenses but not for any services associated with measuring and fitting, and not on the test if you have to pay for it. However, in my experience the measuring and fitting  is often done by a trainee and is bundled with the cost of the spectacles - and is the most error prone part of the exercise! 

Michael Ixer ● 2738d

Another terrible tax is the tampon tax. I think, not 100% sure , to be 20%. I personally have spent much time and effort trying to abolish this tax as I consider it to be a 'necessity' not a luxury item. Perhaps people should not be quite so derogatory of India, which has abolished the tax.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2738d

Totally agree on that, and all credit to India for abolishing it. There has been a long-running campaign to abolish VAT on tampons in the UK and, according to the IEA (not a source I normally place much credit on), the tax in the UK was reduced to 5% a couple of years ago: https://iea.org.uk/the-pr-nightmare-of-the-tampon-tax/

Richard Carter ● 2737d

UK government unable to reduce below 5% as it would contravene (you guessed it ) EU rules on VAT . our govt have been lobbying for a change for years and EU seem to agree but haven't got round to changing their rules to allow it. Think change was included in 2017 budget but unable to implement until EU drag themselves to change rules.

Andy Pike ● 2737d

@Andy"Think change was included in 2017 budget but unable to implement until EU drag themselves to change rules."Or much sooner when the U.K. is free of EU dictatorship.

Sue Hammond ● 2737d

Tesco Waitrose and Coop choose not to charge customers but have to pay HMRC ths tax. Ie fheh choose to take the hit.

Andy Pike ● 2737d

Good for them.👏🏻 Should never have been applied in the first place.

Sue Hammond ● 2737d

Agreed, time the EU got its act together on this. Good for the supermarkets, although I think they've often had loss leaders, normally on some of the food staples? Sorry if that sounds a bit cynical. 

Michael Ixer ● 2737d