Forum Topic

Banning LGBT+ lessons in school

So much better sex education these days than when I was at school in the 60s when we were taught the biological act but nothing about relationships.How dare people want this banned because being gay "is a choice" and it "goes against God".  My gay brother had an awful time in the 60s growing up in an unsympathetic climate as a young gay guy and was terribly upset and confused. In his early 20s he was beaten up and he was no Julian Clary.  He has been in a happy long term relationship now for nearly 40 years.The woman I've just seen on the BBC London News seems to think that being gay is catching.... I can't say the words I want to call her!!These little children are not told any more than they can handle, but hopefully this awful prejudice can be stopped by showing children kindness and open mindedness.

Bunny Payne ● 2689d71 Comments

More than likely will be castigated in this day and age but don't believe relationships as such should be taught,anymore than I think religion should be taught in schools.  It should be an out of school parental decision.  I do believe tolerance is a priority,.  Schools should be for the 3 Rs.  Shouldn't have gender neutral toilets either.Don't believe in social engineering at all.

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2689d

I wholeheartedly agree with you Bunny.

Clare Noeken ● 2689d

So do I.

Jane Carter ● 2689d

Interesting subject Bunny. When I was chatting to my wife about this a few days ago she pointed out something I didn't realise.The schools are just trying to teach the kids from a young age that it is OK to have 2 Mummies or 2 Daddies. It's not about sexual activity or anything that may be perceived as too much for a kid to handle at a young age. When my wife mentioned this, I thought what a great way to put it across and educate the kids to raise awareness that not all kids have one Mummy and one Daddy, and that it's OK that kids have differing family arrangements in the home.It surely would go a long way to stop kids from feeling awkward when they are picked up from school.Without wanting to get political about this subject the argument will not go away i'm afraid.The protests outside the school should be a storm in a teacup, but unfortunately i think they will just gather momentum until the head teachers reluctantly cave in.One thing is for sure, those opposing the teachings in school will not back down.

Paul Game ● 2689d

Really? Yesterday you suggested that supporting the head teachers ‘over the Muslims in Birmingham left you wondering whether there are racist tendencies attached ...’

Jane Carter ● 2689d

With Bunny on this.

Michael Ixer ● 2689d

Jane, you and Richard are a couple of antagonists.I'm starting to think you may be more of one than him!

Paul Game ● 2689d

I agree with you Bunny that sex education is important. I can recall that as a teenager I wondered why Oscar Wilde had gone to prison. I went and looked him up in the School library and was surprised with what I found out – this was a long time ago and we were very sheltered and innocent in those days!On the other hand I can understand why in some cases parents are not happy with what children may be taught in school. My sister lived in Malta some years ago and my nieces were at the Catholic Convent school in Valetta which provided a very good academic education. They came back from school one day and asked why Johnny, their neighbour was a sinner. The Nuns had told them that if you sinned you would have a disabled child and Johnny had a mentally handicapped child. My sister and her husband decided to take my nieces away from the Convent as did not want them to be confused by the very strict form of Catholic belief promulgated by the nuns.

Caroline Whitehead ● 2689d

I am antagonistic towards the parents in this particular case and hence agree with the others on this thread.

Jane Carter ● 2689d

I don't think it's always right when a child is very young unless your talking about animals having babies. Tell them not to talk to strangers or go off with or take sweets from people they don't know. When a girl reaches 11 or 12 don't do things with boys. This may be an old fashioned approach, but most girls know from their friends who have older sister's and want to tell you how you do it. Teachers can do the diagrams of your body. etc. I didn't know, my parents were old and my mum would have been embarrassed to tell me.

Barbara Stevens ● 2688d

Sorry misread, some children may be different but let them find their own way, no need to make anything of it. My granddaughter loves Lego and making things, that's because my son loved it and would sit for hours making things, doesn't mean she want's to be a boy. Answer their questions when they ask. Also I don't believe in sharing toilets I think it's dangerous as changing rooms. There are strange people about like Eddi Catz.

Barbara Stevens ● 2688d

I find this a difficult one . My niece was very much a tomboy until about 15 and then discovered how beautiful she was and naturally became a real girly girl. Would worry in this day and age that some teacher or other school influence would have suggested she was a transgender and we would never gave seen the real her.

Andy Pike ● 2688d

As Paul pointed out, everything taught is age appropriate, just as the full facts of life would not be taught to small children, so they are just shown it's OK to have 2 mummies or daddies.I don't agree this should be left up to parents, can you image the awful prejudices being taught to children by some parents at home, especially when they go against our national laws and values.

Bunny Payne ● 2688d

I agree with you Andy. Let girls be tomboys without worrying them about sexuality before they're ready.

Lucille Grant ● 2688d

Andy I was a tomboy, I was always out on my bike playing in the park. Or out playing in our road. You could play out, I was told not to go to Barnes common but not told why.  I went with older girls who looked after me and if an old bloke was sitting on a bench they would grab my hand and we would run.

Barbara Stevens ● 2688d

Yes. Only too easily!This has nothiing to do with lettiing giirls be tomboys or teachers forcing an agenda on small children; it's about letting them know that some have 2 parents of the same gender and that's fine.

Jane Carter ● 2688d

Some of the comments on here seem to highlight the need for education in difference between different types of relationships, equal opportunities for all, the LGBTQ+ spectrum, ... 🙂

Michael Ixer ● 2688d

Sure Michael, but at what age is this appropriate? Currently letting kids know it's normal to have two Mummies or two Daddies at a young age is fine but the LBGTQ spectrum and variety of relationships is difficult enough for many adults to get their heads around let alone primary age children. I object to be called a CIS woman for example. I'm just a straight woman but other women (younger than me) try to impose labels. Kids don't need  labelling. It's a complex  minefield.

Lucille Grant ● 2688d

Lucille. I'm not going to claim to have the answer to that. The LGBTQ+ spectrum is an area where a lot more knowledge has been publicised during the past few years, partly because it's no longer swept under the carpet, and, yes, adults have to cope with an area that is rapidly changing. In practice children are going to be aware of some things from an early age: they're going to see things like gay pride on the TV, and also see same sex or tansgender celebrity  couples/individuals on TV? Surely, the thing is to make them aware from an early age that not everyone fits a standard binary model? One doesn't have to go into the mechanics or try and pigeonhole them; that can come later in their own time? The danger is that prejudices can be set at an early age, surely the aim is to teach children to have an open mind but guide them in setting boundaries, and identifying real threats? Most people wouldn't be happy with their children being taught creationism in science lessons as most people no longer consider the Bible a source of scientific knowledge, but while teaching current science understanding, teachers need to point out that ideas they are being taught are being challenged and new discoveries being made all the time. I would imagine a good educationalist could devise a similar program for teaching personal relationships during the course of a child's education?

Michael Ixer ● 2688d

Sure Michael, in essence I agree with you but going by my daughter's experience with her two young sons she waits until they ask questions and then gives them honest answers. You're right, there is far more publicity about differences in gender than there ever has been before but in some cases  it seems to have led to even more confusion!

Lucille Grant ● 2688d

No Jane read the 1st message and don't keep putting other people down. You were not taught very well at school, I bet you kept interrupting the teacher. I'M RIGHT i'M ALWAYS RIGHT.

Barbara Stevens ● 2688d

I wholeheartedly agree with you Lucille.Let children be children until questions are asked! You can have tomboys as you can have boys who like pink.  Just let them be!There was a programme on TV not long ago where they asked some 5 or 6 year olds friends if the saw any differences between them.  In one case it was a black boy and a white boy, in another a girl with glasses and the other with pony tails.  In all cases, they spoke about the food the other one liked best, or whether one lived at the top of the road and the other at the bottom.  Young children do not have the prejudices we have.Letting them know some have two daddies and some two mummies, fine, but why highlight this before they ask?I think teaching them to share things, to be friends, respect and honesty are far more important for children to learn at an early age as is tackling bullying.LGBT issues are very complex and I honestly think primary school children should not be laden with this.  Secondary school children perhaps it could be helpful.  As they reach puberty could be beneficial.  As for cisgender, I object to it too.  Man or woman will do very nicely, thank you.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2688d

Michael, I completely agree with you.  We all have "prejudices" without even knowing it and it is good to have education and openness for all of us as adults.  Our children pick up on what we think and believe, but there is so much more information out there than has ever been.As we are discovering and as I have heard from friends doing PHDs and research on this subject, we are not as binary as has been taught to us in the past.  Why not let our children understand that?

Bunny Payne ● 2688d

People do not 'own' their children and do not always know what's best for them. You have only to look at the anti-vaxxers who are risking the lives of their children through their own stupidity.As Paul says, it's just about accepting that some of their class mates will have two mummies or two daddies, not detailed lessons on who does what to whom in LGBT relationships.

Frances Clarke ● 2688d

Hello Bunny,If you do not mind me "butting in" in your post addressed to Michael.  It is rather long!We know that in times of Nero, homosexuality did exist as it did in the Egyptian and Greek empires.So, the "normality" of human beings (as in animals) is not as binary as we know it.Fast forward to the 21st century, there is a conflict between what exists and religious believes.When it comes to children and the believes we hold as adults, we should understand that children are completely unperturbed by the differences we see as adults.From Wikipedia:The conquest mentality and "cult of virility" shaped same-sex relations. Roman men were free to enjoy sex with other males without a perceived loss of masculinity or social status, as long as they took the dominant or penetrative role. Acceptable male partners were slaves and former slaves, prostitutes, and entertainers, whose lifestyle placed them in the nebulous social realm of infamia, excluded from the normal protections accorded a citizen even if they were technically free. Although Roman men in general seem to have preferred youths between the ages of 12 and 20 as sexual partners, freeborn male minors were off limits at certain periods of Rome, though professional prostitutes and entertainers might remain sexually available well into adulthood.["Cinderella" [1] or The Little Glass Slipper, is a folk tale embodying a myth-element of unjust oppression and triumphant reward. Thousands of variants are known throughout the world.[2][3] The title character is a young woman living in unfortunate circumstances, that are suddenly changed to remarkable fortune. The story of Rhodopis, recounted by the Greek geographer Strabo sometime between around 7 BC and 23 AD, about a Greek slave girl who marries the king of Egypt, is usually considered to be the earliest known variant of the Cinderella story.[2][3][4] The first literary European version of the story was published in Italy by Giambattista Basile in his Pentamerone in 1634; the version that is now most widely known in the English-speaking world was published in French by Charles Perrault in Histoires ou contes du temps passé in 1697.[5] Another version was later published by the Brothers Grimm in their folk tale collection Grimms' Fairy Tales in 1812. Complicated? Pffffff

Ivonne Holliday ● 2688d

Anti-vaxxers vs LGBT??????

Ivonne Holliday ● 2688d

Not my point but I would guess anti-vaxxers, creationists or homosexual cures, etc are all examples of prejudicial beliefs taking precedence over knowledge derived from scientific research?

Michael Ixer ● 2688d

I am not altogether sure I agree with you Michael.As far as I am aware, anti-vaxxers are parents who disagree with their children being "infected" with vaccines that supposedly protect them from disease.I do not think homosexuality to be a disease.....

Ivonne Holliday ● 2688d

That wasn't what I meant. Science seems to indicate that homosexuality is a natural state for a significant proportion of mammals,  science would indicate vaccination protects people from diseases,  science indicates how the solar system and earth, then animals evolved, etc?

Michael Ixer ● 2688d

I agree with you Michael.My question was anti-vaxxers vs homosexuals.I do not agree with anti-vaxxers as I was brought up in the late 50s early 60s when there were epidemics of polio and small pox (chicken pox??).  The outcomes were horrific!!Also, we must not forget Jenner! Homosexuality had nothing to do with disease as those mentioned!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2688d

I think we are agreed. Sorry,  I may have caused some confusion in a previous post by a badly phrased example. Unfortunately,  there are some fundamentalist Christians - I think mainly in the US - who mistakenly believe that they can "cure" homosexuality. Hope that clarifies my comment?

Michael Ixer ● 2688d

"and if an old bloke was sitting on a bench they would grab my hand and we would run"Ironically, little were you know they weren't looking for little girls. They still aren't as far as I'm aware ;-) That's not to make light of the fact it's not something that should be acceptable in a public place in any form of course. It remains very unnerving when walking there on the way back from the pub across the common, even as a man, if there's someone on that bench just past the cemetery, or lurking in the bushes, which I'm sure many have witnessed in the past.On another slightly significant note, is this the first, admittedly historically anecdotal comment in this thread connecting homosexuality and paedophiles? One would hope that's an outdated prejudice in the modern world. Haven't read back through the complete set of earlier posts to check. Apologies for carrying this further off-topic.

Freddie Francis ● 2687d

How much of a busy curriculum is this minority issue taking up?  Primary school children are already overloaded, and by their very nature are a pretty tolerant bunch, tending to ask questions as and when they arise.  If the parents' views are so entrenched, reading books where Mr and Mr Penguin have a baby is unlikely to have much impact.Surely better to teach them English comprehension, mathematical logic and reasoning skills, along with some human biology so that they can make their own decisions when puberty actually kicks in.I saw on the news that children are being taught how to manage their finances, which seems a far better use of extra-curricular time.

Chantal Blake-Milton ● 2687d

Well when I was old enough and understood what they made me run for I then new why mother didn't want me over Barnes common. Even the men on their bikes outside my school in Sheen, by the time I was 11yrs at Secondary School, we new what they had in their hand. By the age of 15yrs we had to give a description after we had been smoking at the end of the playing field well miss he had dark glasses while giggling. All right when with friends but not if your on your own. Do we have to explain to a young child all the strange people in this world they will find out soon enough. That does not mean everybody is strange.

Barbara Stevens ● 2687d

Agree Chantal, lessons and little stories for the young children, playing with beads so they can get them stuck up their nose, is much more fun. Learning about different trees.

Barbara Stevens ● 2687d

Oh well flashers are a different matter. Really, times haven't changed much have they? People would have you think pervy types were created by the internet while they have been an unfortunate constant I'd say. I'm aware that pretty much every woman has encountered one of them.  I'm a firm believer in caution regarding what you tell children but it also depends what you call strange I suppose, which brings us back yo the Trans/Gay perception and how it's explained, should it need to be. False stereotypes should be discouraged for obvious reasons. I was at art college during the height of New Romantic period so surrounded by what many would have thought were weirdos but were perfectly normal under the clothes and makeup, especially the men who were more often than not very hetero despite the mascara and frills.

Freddie Francis ● 2687d

Yes, my experience too Freddie.  Both with flashers when I was a child and male friends since who wore/wear mascara, earrings etc. All definitely hetero! Never judge a book by its cover.

Lucille Grant ● 2687d

When I was about 7 some geezer pulled down his trousers and underneath he was wearing tights and nowt else. I p1$$ed myself laughing. When I returned home and told dad what I'd seen he immediately rounded up a few mates and went a-hunting (don't now recall hunting outcome).When dad got home he sat me down and explained all about "funny men". That was enough! I certainly didn't need my teacher at school to inform me...no she was there to teach me the 3 Rs. I'm getting the impression that LBGT is almost becoming a fashion...bit like knife crime but without the blood and death!

Simon Knight ● 2687d

I agree with you  Freddie. ‘Normal’ is not exclusively ‘hetero’. I think original message on this thread was a plea for tolerance and acceptance of gay and transgender people. Mr and Mr Penguin and Ms Penguin and Ms Penguin fine for small children

Jane Carter ● 2687d

Jane, it doesn't matter what "normal" is it's the fact that class time is being taken up with stuff that is best left to parents to decide whether their 6yr old needs to know. Do you think that in China, N Or S Korea, India, Japan or Indonesia devotes any amount of class time on this crap? No they're teaching their children to speak multi-languages, be numerate and mathmatical and be world beaters in technology.We on the other hand teach: Little Johnny has two daddies.Zero problem with LBGT or any other persuasion but bloody hell this country is up $h1t street without a paddle so how about let teachers try at least to devote their time and hopefully get our future pension providers equiped to take on the rest of the world and perhaps teach science and 3 Rs?

Simon Knight ● 2687d

Here here Simon

Andy Pike ● 2687d

@Simon - I guess most people do fit into the standard binary model but there's a significant number of people who don't for various reasons: it's not a fashion, just a better understanding and acceptance of that. It's got nothing to do with child abuse, etc which seems to be mainly a problem in the heterosexual community? Completely different to knife crime, which seems to be driven by serious drug supply criminals muscling into the local gang scene.

Michael Ixer ● 2687d

"binary model"? Do you mean module? and is this some new hip phrase?I was making the point that kids are subjected to sex stuff at an early age anyway and I feel it's parents who should take any inititative to educate them.See my later post.

Simon Knight ● 2687d

Spot on Simon.

Sue Hammond ● 2687d

Mathematical model - as in the union of the two sets of straight men and straight women. Quite old maths now 🙂

Michael Ixer ● 2687d

Agree Simon, some poor children don't have a mum or dad or two mum's and two dad's, or stepmum  and stepdad. They have been living in a foster home, or Banardo's. Give them a break when they get into school teach them lesson's. Is it fair to highlight that some children have a proper family life and they don't.

Barbara Stevens ● 2687d

Wish I had a Penguin as mummy or daddy, there all won't one. Bet they don't all have tears streaming down their face like I do, I can hardly get my breath.

Barbara Stevens ● 2687d

I’m all for teaching children about difference and tolerance.  There’s way too much hatred, intolerance and bigotry in the world

Craig Fordham ● 2687d

Yes Craig, I agree with you.I believe that respect, tolerance and understanding should be taught a lot more loudly than it is.I am not too sure that 6 year olds should be made aware of differences, just because they do not see them!Once they ask, please do explain as is necessary.But children at that age do not see differences in the colour of the skin, their hair, whether they are short or tall, but they most certainly do know what their friend's favourite food is!!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2687d

Agreed, Craig

Michael Ixer ● 2687d

Craig what age are you talking about, my son works in a school in Sweden and has two girls 9 and 6. He spends most of his time with his girls while his other half is a hairdresser. He'd rather they had fun on their scooters or walked the dog, you can teach them to help other people and have compassion or another child might be disabled and help them. Who wants to know what grown ups get up to, their find out soon enough.  As for Gay Pride spend more money on Cystic Fibrosis.

Barbara Stevens ● 2686d

To Ivonne … So, the "normality" of human beings (as in animals) is not as binary as we know it.I totally agree.  There is proven homosexuality in all animal and insect species.  Homosexuality has been tolerated and sometimes celebrated in many cultures, as in the North American Indians.We don't go along with creationist teachings, as some places in the US are reported to (shocking) there is no reason why, in our enlightened times, we should go along with the idea that a doctor, minutes after the birth of a baby, will decide how that baby is expected to live their life forevermore.

Bunny Payne ● 2686d

Well I can tell by the semi-hysteria on this thread, apart from a couple of sensible people, that this subject is extremely necessary.Firstly, I don't think these little kids are being "taught" anything, just gently exposed to differences. I'm sure it takes no time out of their curriculum at all. My old headmaster used to take us for "current affairs" in the 6th form, we all came out as card carrying lefties!! lolSecondly, my objection was towards religious groups who are campaigning because "God says it's wrong".Thirdly, I think the media are making too much of a big deal, as usual, but maybe some forumites need to do a bit of research too!

Bunny Payne ● 2686d

Well said Bunny.

Jane Carter ● 2686d

Yes, agreed, a good summary, Bunny.

Michael Ixer ● 2686d

Barbara, I agree that we shouldn’t be teaching youngsters about sex before they’re ready, however from an early age I think we should be teaching our children that it’s ok to be yourself and it’s ok to be different.  I think it’s really sad when I hear young children reinforcing traditional gender stereotypes - pink is for girls, blue is for boys, boys shouldn’t play with dolls, girls can’t play football etc (although hopefully we’ve put that last one to bed now!) or describing something lame as ‘gay.’  If your son is teaching his children to show compassion to everyone around them, then he sounds like a brilliant parent

Craig Fordham ● 2685d

Craig, Have you had this interesting discussion with your Muslim friends you mentioned? Wondering what their thoughts are about the stand off in Birmingham or is this subject off limits for you to discuss with them?

Paul Game ● 2685d

Morning Paul.  My Muslim friends are very liberal in their views and, like most people nowadays have a variety of friends of different religions, backgrounds and sexualities.  It’s important not to confuse the minority of extremist Muslims with the vast majority of moderate Muslims.  Just as extremist Christians don't represent the majority of moderates.  Extremists are just that...extreme.

Craig Fordham ● 2685d

I couldn't agree with you more about religious extremists.  We tend to forget that you get them in all religions - including Christianity!

Philippa Bond ● 2685d

Morning Craig, I agree humanity is at it's best when people come together from all walks of life, so we strongly agree on that. Where we disagree is that Radical Islam is killing around the world in the name of their God and no other group is doing this.The teachings in the Mosques which Fraser points out are very disturbing and this isn't going on in Christian churches.The religious ideology is the problem, not the ethnicity, background or sexuality of an individual. The Quran needs to be updated so it is fit for purpose in the modern world, as Quilliam are trying to do.Why we are having the debate about the clash at the Birmingham school?Because the doctrine in the Quran doesn't allow for the teaching of homosexuality.

Paul Game ● 2685d

Too much drama from this school's over-sensitive parents in my opinion. However, I don't see any need to 'teach' primary school age children about LGBT. Very young children are non-judgemental by nature and generally accept what they see. So if they see other kids in school (or elsewhere) with 2 women (mummies) or 2 men (daddies) I don't think they would question it. Why would they? A lot of children have just one parent and that probably wouldn't be questioned by them either, so what's the big deal?  It's adults who may question things they don't consider to be 'normal', so perhaps they need educating instead? Children may become more curious about same sex partnerships as they get older, and might then ask questions, so I think that is the right time for parents to discuss LGBT with them.  In secondary school it can also be covered in PHSE lessons. At the end of the day (even though I dislike that expression) same sex partnerships and their children is about family love, not sex. These blinkered hysterical parents need to get over it, go away and allow the pupils in this school to learn in peace.

Sue Hammond ● 2685d

@Paul. Broadly in agreement that we should all come together. However, speaking as a atheist, I would question why you single out Muslim extremists. The evangelists in the US seem as bigoted but more mainstream influence and a bigger threat (Mike Pence and his wife?) - they seem to be messing up international organisations like the IPPF; so do the Russian Orthodox and some Catholic Christians, and orthodox Jews? Cultural change takes time - in the 1960s homosexuality was still illegal in the UK and single mothers were still often treated as outcasts, and it's not that long ago Mary Whitehouse was campaigning against the BBC, oh - and we've still got Ann Widdecombe saying science might find a "gay" cure - let's hoped she stays in the EU parliament where thgeymight educate her ...

Michael Ixer ● 2685d

I agree. This is exactly why children in school should be taught tolerance and acceptance of other genders and other faiths than their own .

Jane Carter ● 2685d

Also baffling to me, why aren't the Left, LGBT community, Feminists and the moderate Muslims that Craig talks about out on the streets counter protesting at the Birmingham school if they are in favour of these teachings in the school?They would all be out on the streets if it was a different subject matter.

Paul Game ● 2685d

It would be interesting to know whether there is a group of moderate Muslim parents who accept the need for this type of teaching.

Jane Carter ● 2685d

Good question Jane, but I think not as the men call all the shots in Islam.

Paul Game ● 2685d

Paul, probably for the same reason that no-one contributing to this thread is protesting outside the school - we have opinions, are mildly irritated, quite cross even, but not enough to take direct action.  The overwhelming majority of the UK population - Christian, Muslim, Jew, Atheist, Straight, Gay or Bisexual - are boringly moderate. Getting angry - really, really angry - is just exhausting...and besides Wimbledon is on, it’s nice weather for sitting in the garden and it’s Saturday.

Craig Fordham ● 2685d

Sadly Widdecombe is past being educated Michael. Europeans must think Britain has well and truly lost the plot by electing her.

Lucille Grant ● 2685d

haha brilliant reply Craig. I wholeheartedly agree with you especially with Wimbledon on the TV.Enjoy the sunshine :-)

Paul Game ● 2685d

Excited for Nadal v Tsonga now! See you later. xx

Sue Hammond ● 2685d

What I meant was are all the Muslim parents at the Birmingham school opposing and protesting against the teaching of LGBT rights?

Jane Carter ● 2685d