Forum Topic

Liberalism and the left verdsus right

Thought I'd open a new thread for this one. There seem to be some assumptions concerning liberalism and left versus right politics. Listening to the Q&A after Edward Snowdon's keynote speech at the Open Rights Group conference last Saturday, someone implied his politics had shifted left since moving from the US to Russia. His response was that he was still a free marketer so, no, he was essentially right wing as he'd always been and hadn't become a socialist or "commie" as a result of his relocation: he was still in the same place on the east/west horizontal line. However, if one looked at the north (authoritarian)/south (libertarian) poles then he had definitely moved south on the vertical line in making his decision and taking his action to quit the NSA/CIA and becoming a whistleblower. If one looks at the definitions (cribbed from Wikipedia) of liberal (a political and moral philosophy based on individual libertty, consent of the governed, and equality before the law) and authoritarianism (individual freedoms are subordinate to the state, and there is no constitutional accountability and no rule of law) then there's the possibility of many variations between extreme authoritarian left or right wing thinking to liberal right or left wing views. Perhaps when using terms such a liberal some further qualification may me needed? I don't necessarily agree with all of Snowdon's views or actions but found this point well made, particularly as a lot of attendees were equating left wing with liberal views; however, the Stasi in East Germany proved that wasn't true. (Somewhat ironic that the current Russian president one has a Stasi ID card when he was based in Dresden ...) Posted this as I think someone else touched on this in another thread?

Michael Ixer ● 2676d36 Comments

@Paul. Not sure I'd agree with you about May being more liberal. From what I remember the Heath government in the 70s was closer to the Liberals than the current one; for one thing, from what I recall, Heath didn't seek to reverse a lot of Wilson's socialist policies? Thatcher definitely moved to the right with, as noted by Freddie, the "on your bike culture". With regard to liberalism and the current Birmingham protesters surely "clause 28" puts Thatcher firmly on the protesters' side? May is more liberal than that but not, perhaps, as liberal as Heath was? Perhaps the Liberal party has become more right wing which puts May closer without her needing to be more liberal - it certainly helped Cameron form his coalition? The Liberal/LibDems have evolved from having a pact with Labour in the 1970s to a recent coalition with the Tories. And remember Peter Hain transitioned over time from a Liberal in Putney to a Labour MP in Neath. Ms Greening and oldies like Ken Clarke seem closer to the current LibDems than to their average Tory colleagues at the moment - my opinion based on perception. Anyway, I think Mrs May's government's treatment of immigrants - particularly those termed Windrush who in many cases were British citizens but couldn't prove it - puts her firmly in the illiberal, authoritarian camp. Contrast that with Heath's government's acceptance of Ugandan Asians in 1972 - and I have to say I've worked with some of those in IT and they're a great asset to our economy not just because they're great techies but from their background they also understand business, unlike a lot of British IT graduates. So to summarise, my answer to your question is that I'd say the Tories took a sharp right turn from Heath to Thatcher and became illiberal in some social areas, May has extended Thatcher's directions in some areas (look at the growth in food bank users) but is more liberal in some areas such as gay rights; additionally I'd say policing is becoming more authoritarian (the use of cameras, CCTV, etc) rather than community policing - but less effective, and justice is seeking to reform as much as punish to stop red offending but that's not going to work while social services such as youth services and rehabilitation support are starved of cash. However, now she's leaving office perhaps she's moving towards the liberal wing as she's got nothing to lose (for example, criticising Trump) and is worried how her legacy will be perceived? Sorry, a number of disparate thoughts rather hurriedly put together.

Michael Ixer ● 2675d

Thanks PaulI've nothing against CCTV per we - in fact from an information security point of view I've found it quite a useful tool! However, it should be operated with transparency and with clear policies and independent oversight. There's been an issue with trials by the met  police of live facial recognition (LFR): these had no mandate and there's currently no legislation permitting their use or controls over how they should be used. The perception is they were used surreptitiously two years running to police the Notting Hill Gate carnival, as well as elsewhere. One problem appears to be that the the technology isn't that accurate at present so apparently there were a number of false positives meaning a lot of completely innocent people were stopped. Aside from anything else this isn't likely to improve relations with a community who already aren't too friendly towards the police. Perhaps the police had reasons for this but the result is that apparently all trials are now on hold, so the secrecy is possibly delaying the introduction of this potentially useful technology. (I'll admit I've only heard one side of this at the ORG conference but I'm sure the met police would have been welcome to put their case: government organisations such as the ICO and the NCSC were represented and presented at the conference.)Regarding police on the street, everyone seems to view that as "a good thing" - except possibly criminals! It was mentioned at Ms Greening's meeting on crime at St Mary's a month or so ago. More police on foot acts as a deferent, allows faster response, builds relationships and cooperation with the community, and is a mechanism for gathering information speeding detection and improving crime prevention.Prosecution of military vets is a dilemma. Where troops are used in a policing or civil defence role (Northern Ireland, and at times in Iraq and Afghanistan) then I think they have to know that there's accountability if rules of engagement are infringed. I think that's different to a battlefield situation where there is a moie continuous urgency to survive. After long periods then I can see a case for amnesties because often the reasons for delays in justice are caused by politicians for their own purposes; I also suspect some personal actions by lowly privates and junior NCOs are the result of a culture set by commanding officers and senior NCOs - and it's nearly always the foot soldiers taking orders and not the generals spouting them that seem to carry the can.  But perhaps peacekeepers have to be held to a higher standard than terrorists to maintain credibility? A difficult one where I can see both sides - it almost requires the view of someone who's experienced both situations - a relative shot by a peacekeeper and who's been in a peacekeeping force themselves?

Michael Ixer ● 2675d