Forum Topic

Are we all in shock?

My mood this morning reflects the weather - very grey and sad.I thought the behaviour at the HoC yesterday was beyond appalling, may I use the word unforgivable?  I just feel that the language used yesterday was shockingly awful and of third rate politics.I do feel for Brendan Cox and his children.  Using Jo Cox's name to support Brexit was below the belt to say the least.Then mocking MPs when they asked for moderate language. Where do we go from here?  Personally, I do not think an election would solve anything because an election cannot be fought on one issue alone.  I do not know, but what a horrific spectacle to witness.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2603d64 Comments

On the radio yesterday, someone suggested that the Tories under Johnson have adopted the "Millwall Strategy":-"No one likes us, we don't care".Although, I gather from the polls, a lot of people do like them. I would despair, if I thought that it would help.

David Ainsworth ● 2603d

Angry, sad, k perhaps that our government is so appaling. But shocked? No. I'm not surprised that a privileged public school,  ex Bullingdon Club member is now trying to trash parliament rather than restaurants, or whatever they did. Only difference is these days daddy's money can't keep him out of the courts. Let's hope the law will prevail, we need more strong individuals like Lady Hale. 

Michael Ixer ● 2603d

I watched the Parliamentary coverage, live, throughout the afternoon and evening.  It was a dreadful show from the Attorney General then Johnson. Justine Greening's face said it all: a mix of disappointment, disdain, disgust, despair.Conservative Chairman, Cleverley, was offered every opportunity to express some semblance of contrition on the Today Programme this morning but he chose to pass, over and over again.  Attack attack attack.  Thank goodness Sir Nicholas Soames can be relied upon, faithfully, to be statesmanlike and reasonable, choosing his words more wisely.Show us The Deal Johnson.

Sarah Roberts ● 2603d

I agree Ivonne. In South Africa today people wonder what has happened to the mother of Parliament. All gobsmacked. Acts like Boris's may be the norm here but not in the UK. How far we have fallen. Am ashamed to be British.

Lucille Grant ● 2603d

Imagine how shamed youd feel if the commies under Corbyn got in

Andy Pike ● 2603d

Andy, deflection from the issue at hand is not the answer.  We may or may not ever have a hard left Corbyn government (and I think probably not) but we absolutely must start by condemning the language used by Johnson and Geoffrey Cox, his Attorney General. The politics of Brexit are becoming ever more polarised but this takes it to a new level of toxicity. Don’t you see that?

Jonathan Callaway ● 2603d

Private PikeGrow up you stupid boy !(I am allowed to address you in this manner as I have been watching our Prime Minister at the Dispatch Box in Parliament).

John Hawkes ● 2603d

"Imagine how shamed youd (sic) feel if the commies under Corbyn got in"You know, I had someone tell me not long after the referendum that they had voted leave to stick it to the government. A rather lame protest vote if you like. I was amazed at the time but now know it was not uncommon among many voters who perhaps naively thought we'd stay despite their vote.So I would say not voting Tory and opening up the possibility of a Corbyn 'Commie' government might be seen as a similar opportunity, i.e.' sticking it to the Tories. It would be the same self-destructive, stupidly principled concept and perhaps grasped as a bit sweet revenge for the total chaos the Tories, my previously favoured party, have plunged us into.But then thankfully, I'm not that idiotically stupid.

Freddie Francis ● 2603d

Imaginary "Commie" fantasies, but there are real fascists out there:-https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/sep/26/supreme-court-litigant-advised-to-buy-stab-vest-after-death-threats"Maugham, a barrister and founder of the Good Law Project, said he had been advised by security experts to hire a bodyguard for key public events.“I have bought a stab vest and will hire personal security too. I’m really worried,” he said. “I was slightly embarrassed, getting this level of attention from a police force that, like all others, is financially stretched but the detective constable insisted that it’s proportional and necessary: he said there’s a lot of lone wolf, far-right threats around at the moment and I need to be protected.”The threats began during the court case this week, which led to the supreme court ordering MPs back to parliament. But police fears for Maugham’s safety increased after a journalist published his home address.“Publishing my address has massively increased what is perceived to be the threat against my life,” he said. “It wasn’t helped by an incredibly provocative quote in the media by a No 10 source attacking the people bringing the legal case and threatening the judiciary."

David Ainsworth ● 2603d

How unoriginal you are Mr Hawkes. Its over 50 years ago that I heard these remarks in the school playground so I am immune to childish humour by now.Also been done to death on here in the past seven more unoriginal, but if that's your best shot go for it.

Andy Pike ● 2603d

I am sorry Andy, but two wrongs do not make one right.I was talking about last night's performance, not about alternative governments.In my opinion, neither conservatives nor labour are electable now.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2603d

Then, let us hope that "All's well that ends well"...  and very soon!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2603d

I think you're right I have no idea who to vote certainly not lab lib or brexit but have doubts about Tories.

Andy Pike ● 2603d

"have doubts about Tories"Doubts? Doubts! What might be causing you mild concern then?

David Ainsworth ● 2603d

@Ivonne"I do feel for Brendan Cox and his children.  Using Jo Cox's name to support Brexit was below the belt to say the least."I didn't see the relevance of linking Jo Cox and Brexit so from that perspective Boris shouldn't have said what he did.  However it was the hysterical outburst by Labour's Paula Sheriff that brought Jo Cox into the HoC dialogue to start with.  I didn't see the relevance of that either, so why did she do it?  No other reason imo other than to stir up emotions in an already overcharged febrile atmosphere. As for Soubry and her pathetic pole dancing 'joke', and Bercow grandstanding for all his worth, it was no wonder things got out of hand.Loved Geoffrey Cox though ...😉Meanwhile, Brendan Cox, Jo's widower, said he felt 'a bit sick' after hearing Mr Johnson's remarks and today he was asked how he believed his late wife might have responded. I felt a bit sick when I read that he had to resign from his job with Save The Children in 2015 after allegations from several women that he was a sex pest.  I wonder if his poor wife felt sick about that?

Sue Hammond ● 2603d

Meanwhile:-"BREAK IN SCARE Man arrested for breaking into office of Jess Phillips and screaming ‘fascist’ after she called on Boris Johnson to apologise for Jo Cox comments during Commons clash"https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/10012865/man-arrested-for-breaking-into-office-of-jess-phillips/

David Ainsworth ● 2603d

100% correct Freddie

Lucille Grant ● 2603d

I heard Jess Phillips speaking on LBC this afternoon. After all the rhetoric from all sides to dial down the language, she was squawking that Boris was to blame for this attack on her office. She also said if any MP gets hurt he will be held responsible for it. Another hysterical Labour MP.🙄

Sue Hammond ● 2603d

Yet another aggressive and tasteless post from Ms Hammond.Real playground stuff - "he said no she said"- and the dredging up of some unsubstantiated gossip about Cox.In all this insult and aggression that Johnson is deliberately generating, I really wondered what sort of person he was trying to attract to his world view and attitude.In Ms Hammond I now see the perfect example.Not those that are of a particular strong persuasion over Brexit, but those that are bitter and twisted and get pleasure in goading and mocking others.What a nasty country the UK is turning into.

John Hawkes ● 2603d

Once again I have to agree with Sue.  I watched the whole thing last night and at times it seemed that the PM was the only calm person in the room.The Speaker was biased and whilst telling off the PM, was not able to control the rabble on the other side of the room.  Paula Sheriff was definitely the one to bring up Jo Cox, not BJ and to my mind the PM was very calm and clear the whole time.  Unfortunately social media has introduced, or possibly highlighted, the nasty, the mean and the outright barking who want to threaten and make horrible comments.  I don't think we should blame the PM for this.

Bunny Payne ● 2603d

Hello Sue,I think your post is not really a kind one.  How sad.I was following PMQs yesterday and really could not believe my eyes.  Geoffrey Cox provided entertainment for some and am convinced he is a frustrated actor.  His performance was more akin to Peter Ustinov's Nero than addressing the HoC on very serious matters.I think BJ's intervention about Jo Cox to be lowest of the low, steerage cattle class style.Paula Sheriff's intervention was for use of proper language.  I suppose I would be very "hysterical" as you put it if I was at the receiving end of death threats.For Boris Johnson to respond that he had "never heard so much humbug in all my life" just goes to show his worth.You may blame everybody else, but Boris Johnson went to the House to stir and inflame.  He was not suitable to be the Foreign Secretary, he is most certainly not suitable for PM.As for Brendan Cox, it is really nasty of you to bring the matter up.  Was he taken to court and proved guilty?  Till then, according to British Law, he is innocent.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2603d

Don't be too sad Ivonne. xx

Sue Hammond ● 2603d

Geoffrey Cox has a baritone voice which is not his fault and it took the little twerp Bercow to reference it.BJ did not intervene about Jo Cox, Paula Sherrif brought her up first as a prop to her ridiculous rant.I have no doubt that, as the Tories have a strategy to talk about getting things done and back to UK business, Labour have a strategy to disrupt as much as possible and blame and be hysterical as much as possible, whilst conveniently nobody mentions that we are not respecting the referendum. No wonder Boris said HUMBUG!!

Bunny Payne ● 2603d

Hear hear Bunny!Still you and Sue get short shrift here I feel!Haven’t seen the speech myself yet.  The overall thread is criticising Boris for his language whilst as usual, overlooking both the actions of Bercow, and of course the bad language used all the time by labour and increasingly by the Lib Dem’s, a few examples here....https://order-order.com/2019/09/26/left-needs-dial-abusive-language/@Michael“But shocked? No. I'm not surprised that a privileged public school,  ex Bullingdon Club member is now trying to trash parliament”Bercow wasn’t a member of the bullingdon club - I believe he went to the university of Essex,@John Hawkes “Yet another aggressive and tasteless post from Ms Hammond.Real playground stuff - "he said no she said"Clearly you need to view things in context and whilst you can argue that the appalling behaviour and normalisation of abusive language by labour (see above about lynching Ester mcvey or killing Margaret Thatcher (both cuddly uncle John McDonald FYI) and their endless “Tory scum” chants) shouldn’t cause a reaction from the prime minister and colleagues, in reality in the febrile atmosphere of the current House of Commons it is IMHO ridiculous of you to claim you can view one in isolation of the other.  To then insult another poster here - I have to ask but do you not see the irony here????It seems to me that far worse language emanates from labour than conservatives but no surprise given the huge bias on this forum that anything they say is overlooked or dismissed as irrelevant.  Add to that the endless breaking of convention against the government by Bercow and the lack of willingness by parliament to go back to the country and I suspect Boris Johnson is being restrained.

Mike Warman ● 2603d

"BJ did not intervene about Jo Cox, Paula Sherrif brought her up first as a prop to her ridiculous rant.""Labour MP Paula Sherriff called on Mr Johnson to stop using pejorative language to describe a law passed by the majority of MPs.“Many of us in this place are subject to death threats and abuse every single day,” she added, reminding MPs that they sat under the shield of murdered MP Ms Cox.“Let me tell the prime minister that they often quote his words—surrender act, betrayal, traitor—and I, for one, am sick of it. We must moderate our language.”Mr Johnson replied: “I have to say that I have never heard such humbug in all my life.” Ms Cox was murdered days before the EU referendum by a white supremacist, who saw her as a “traitor” because of her support for the Remain campaign and refugees."https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-parliament-debate-jo-cox-death-brexit-tommy-robinson-a9121201.html

David Ainsworth ● 2603d

I am sorry Bunny, but BJ said:  We have to honour Jo Cox's death by delivering Brexit.If other people are being disrespectful, it is no excuse for you (or in this case BJ) to be so.Tensions were very high yesterday as many people were very cross about the prorogation of Parliament and somewhat relieved that the Supreme Court ruled that the advice given to the Queen was unlawful.  But I do not think Labour take the ticket for being rude as much as the Conservatives for being red riding hoods.I do not agree with you about disrespecting the result of the referendum.  What people are very unhappy about is the way in which the UK leaves the EU.  The Withdrawal Agreement was rejected 3 times in Parliament and it also voted to reject a no-deal.  Boris Johnson is playing dangerous games by not providing information on proposals for an agreement.  As far as we know, from press reports, the government has submitted not much.  But, hand in heart, I do not remember any session in Parliament being as appalling as yesterday's.  Blaming Bercow is like shooting the messenger.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2603d

@Mike"IMHO ridiculous of you to claim you can view one in isolation of the other.  To then insult another poster here - I have to ask but do you not see the irony here????"Of course he doesn't. Impotent ranter.😉

Sue Hammond ● 2603d

@IvonneWhy would Boris show his hand whilst the negotiations are still going on in Brussels? Btw what does "Conservatives being red riding hoods" mean?

Sue Hammond ● 2603d

Sue,There are no (at least until last week) negotiations going on - no documents were submitted by the UK...  Well, Little Red Riding Hood?  Meaning little angels!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2603d

'We are not respecting the referendum.'What was promised is undeliverable. What is deliverable is undesirable. We already have the best deal.

Clare Noeken ● 2603d

@Mike. Just to put my full quote in its original context: Bercow isn't in government and has not had any of his actions ruled unlawful by the Supreme Court, to my knowledge?

Michael Ixer ● 2603d

Ah, the document Johnson promised Merkel he would deliver six days ago.

John Hawkes ● 2603d

"Unfortunately social media has introduced, or possibly highlighted, the nasty, the mean and the outright barking who want to threaten and make horrible comments".Mr PayneI quite agree.Some on this Forum even whose posts are very questionable.But we should not begrudge those you describe their small pleasures in life !

John Hawkes ● 2603d

@Ivonne 26.09.19 20.53Good morning Ivonne. You say that no Brexit negotiations have been going on?  I find that shocking!  Where did you source this information please?Still don't get the Little Red Riding Hood reference.🤔

Sue Hammond ● 2602d

@ClareBest deal if we were remaining, but even that is debatable. However it's irrelevant because we are leaving.

Sue Hammond ● 2602d

@Sue. It does seem that Johnson and his cronies are desperate to force the UK out of the EU irrespective of the consequences, even if it needs to use some dubious means such as an order of council:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10015128/john-major-boris-dodge-brexit-extension/
(note, not a grauniad post 🙂) A dodgy manouver rather than a dodge? As it seems this is nothing to do with democracy my just becauses Johnson will be political toast if his chums lose out on their betshttps://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/11/brexit-disaster-capitalism-8-billion-bet-on-no-deal-crash-out-by-boris-johnsons-leave-backers/

Michael Ixer ● 2602d

"Johnson will be political toast if his chums lose out on their bets"Some "people versus Parliament"? It's all about "taking back control" for the 17.4 million, or is it for  the £8,000,000,000?The pirates just changed their skull and crossbones for the Union Jack.----------------------------"As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods;They kill us for their sport."

David Ainsworth ● 2602d

'As it seems this is nothing to do with democracy but just because Johnson will be political toast if his chums lose out on their bets'.Indeed, as his sister, Rachel Johnson, said yesterday on BBC Radio 4's World at One show yesterday:Johnson spoke about what she thought was behind the PM’s “strongman gambit” in getting the UK out of the EU. After noting her brother’s role, and the role of his chief adviser Dominic Cummings, she said: 'It also could be from, who knows, people who have invested billions in shorting the pound or shorting the country in the expectation of a no-deal Brexit. We don’t know.'Link to the interview contained in this article:https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2019/09/26/a-bbc-hosts-jaw-dropping-response-to-a-bombshell-from-boris-johnsons-sister/

Clare Noeken ● 2602d

@Michael 10.5Personally I think a deal will be struck, but if one isn't forthcoming I hope Boris gets us out by whatever means are available for him to use. In the same way that all the Remainer MPs have been using all kinds of 'means' to try and derail Brexit? What's good for them is good for Boris.

Sue Hammond ● 2602d

@Sue. I'm not so sure Johnson will achieve a deal, it's got to get through the UK's Parliament and be agreed by all the EU states. Time is a major issues, and he's lost much of that through his messing around with prorogation, he's also lost his parliamentary majority, and probably any goodwill with any labour leave supporters. However, it is politics so who knows what agendas MPs might have and, let's be honest, I think any support Corbyn has for the EU is lukewarm (I've seen some rather dubious stuff retweeted about the EU by his brother Piers but perhaps they don't discuss Brexit ). Primarily, I don't think Johnson will get a deal because i don't believe he will find a solution to the Irish issue that will be acceptable to all parties. To be honest, I don't think there is one and I think that's the main objection to the current Irish backstop: people realise Brexit  and the GFA are incompatible so it would never be resolved. That's why I don't want to crash out with no deal - I think that would be a disaster, particularly for both parts of Ireland; we should have a second referendum (I've note my reasons before) but I now think we should make it clear this time is that Brexit  negotiations will require the GFA to he adapted. 

Michael Ixer ● 2602d

The only reason for a second referendum is to try and overturn the result of the first.  What if it's the same result?  What then??  Plus the fact of many people who voted believing their vote meant something having the equivalent of a slap in the face.  Very helpful for democracy...not.I think Ivonne was meaning a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Bunny Payne ● 2602d

Agree about a 2nd referendum Bunny.Ivonne's metaphor was too obtuse for me.😼

Sue Hammond ● 2602d

I can’t delete a text message on my phone without being asked if I’m sure. I don’t see a problem with a confirmatory vote, now we all know so much more (and so many people have already lost their jobs, and ‘we haven’t even left yet’).

Clare Noeken ● 2602d

Ivonne began this thread on a sad, grey day following the Supreme Court hearing and the particular,raw exchanges in Parliament the next day. If you thought that was bad watch hedgefund billionaire,  Crispin Odey who funded Brexit and Johnson and argued for prorogation, in Channel 4's documentary, Tories At War:“Parliament has got to be minimised in this instance. But in a new parliament [after a general election] in which hopefully he [Johnson] has a 100 majority, parliament comes back into being what it should be. But in the process you may have destroyed a lot of the political class. But the political class long ago forgot who their masters are.”Odious. Sickening.

Sarah Roberts ● 2601d

The ‘masters of the political class’. Who does this idiot think he is? Someone one day will decide to fight fire with fire. Then all hell will be let loose. Heaven help us.

Freddie Francis ● 2601d

Masters of the political class is one of the most chilling phrases I've heard.

Lucille Grant ● 2601d

@Sarah and Lucille"But the political class long ago forgot who their masters are.”I confess I didn't watch the documentary but the quote above that Sarah posted I would take to mean that the 'political class' is Parliament and 'their masters' are the people. "But in the process you may have destroyed a lot of the political class. I would take this to say that a lot of MPs will have lost their seats in the GE.As I said, I didn't see the programme so what do I know?🤔

Sue Hammond ● 2601d

Thank you Sarah for the information on Channel 4's documentary.  I will try to watch it this weekend.Not sure I am looking forward to it if it was worse than Parliament the other day.  The quote from Odey is really vile!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2601d

Sue, you’re correct that the masters should be the people. In the context of Brexit however, it appears that the masters could be the multi-millionaires who are making even more money from the plummeting value of the pound. ‘The public interest in hedge fund companies is highlighted by the fact that Boris was the sole Tory candidate for the leadership who fixed a firm date for Britain to leave the EU “do or die” on October 31...In early August this year, The Times revealed that Odey Asset Management had placed £299 million in short positions on some of Britain’s biggest firms around the date for a possible ‘no deal’ Brexit.’Make it all go away. Stop Brexit. https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/26/cabinet-ethics-probe-into-johnsons-hedge-fund-backers/Some detail of the companies Odey is betting against is here:https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/investing/article-5824697/Brexiteer-Odey-bets-500m-AGAINST-British-businesses.html

Clare Noeken ● 2600d

"Make it all go away. Stop Brexit."Probably the best policy to improve our economy, at least in the short term.

David Ainsworth ● 2600d

The snowflakes are busy again piling into Boris.How about all the foul language from the Remain MPs?Please watch:https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1177198738374320129It's time for an election so we can vote these hypocritical saboteurs out!

Paul Game ● 2600d

Hello Sarah,I did watch Channel 4's documentary last night.  I agree with you that it was a very unpleasant programme to watch and, as you say, Crispin Odey's final remarks were chilling.  It gave a new dimension to the American expression "money talks".  To say that his idea that money rules is an understatement.Frightening!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2600d

Paul,The country is piling against Boris, not just remainers.His performance in the HoC was really appalling and certainly not of a PM willing to unite the country; on the contrary.I did not watch the video you suggested because, for one I do not trust Twitter at all.  Neither would I find a video from Leave EU Official to have a balanced approach. I do agree that a vote is necessary but a GE on one issue is not a healthy option.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2600d

Absolute nonsense Ivonne.If that was the case the Remain parties would call a General election immediately.But they know they will lose and all the Remain MPs in a leave seat will be thrown out by their constituencies.Anyone that watches the BBC and follows the MSM would believe your point about Boris but Brexiteers are fully behind him as he is trying to deliver the referendum result which two thirds of Parliament are trying to block.He was cheered at a visit to the Princess Alexandra Hospital in Harlow by all the staff a few days ago but funnily enough the clip was not shown on the BBC or the rest of the MSM. Wonder why - Hmmmmm let me think...The reason your opinion is so bias Ivonne is because you get all your information from the BBC.Please watch and see for yourself:https://twitter.com/SiDedman/status/1177552155693260801  https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1177532641991680001

Paul Game ● 2600d

You hit the nail on the head with your post Mike.Thanks for the abusive language link you sent.You couldn't make this S**T up.The hypocrisy and double standards, it beggars belief!

Paul Game ● 2600d

I am sorry Paul, I do not get all my information from the BBC and most certainly not from MSM.  I get it from very many other sources which obviously do not include Twitter!The Labour Party, which is not a Remain party, asked for a GE many times before and that was laughed at.  However, it was conveniently requested by the Tory Party recently, mainly to prorogue Parliament supposedly lawfully.The games that being played at the moment are horrific and terrifying. As Helen Mirren (not a politician I know) said this morning, at the moment we have school playground politics. This state of affairs is not at all encouraging.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2600d

Did anyone watch Boris on the Andrew Marr Show this Morning? His explanation opf his 'Humbug' riposte was particularly convoluted and unconvincing I thought.

Caroline Whitehead ● 2600d

I watched a bit of it.  His explanations were not only convoluted and unconvincing, they were absolutely ridiculous!I stopped watching him because I could not believe a word he was saying.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2600d

Philip Pullman on Boris Johnson today:-"As for the prime minister: “Well, he’s a psychopath. Or he’s a sociopath. He’s born without the normal human reactions of shame, embarrassment, you know, all those things… He’s without them. He doesn’t mind who he hurts. He doesn’t mind whether he destroys the truth or not. In those respects, of course, he’s learned a lot from Trump; that you can go into a high office of state and throw your weight around and break things, and nobody minds, or nobody manages to stop you. And the opposition is so helpless, so useless.”If Johnson does hold an election, Pullman suspects he will pitch it as “people versus parliament – and he’ll be on the side of the people. I mean, it’s just a joke – but he could do it and he could win and it’s terribly dangerous.”"https://www.theguardian.com/global/2019/sep/29/philip-pullman-i-am-a-citizen-and-a-writer

David Ainsworth ● 2600d

This short Youtube clip is well worth watching for those with short memories.Helen Mirren is a foul-mouthed creature herself, and would be wise to keep out of any political argument on good manners.As far as I remember Little Red Riding Hood is a European folk tale where LRR strays from the path on the way to her grandmother's who has already been eaten by the wolf, who then dresses up in Grannie's clothes, lies in her bed, and gobbles up LRR.  A pretty good analogy I'd say.

Chantal Blake-Milton ● 2600d

It's Sunday, we all need to be careful with our language 🙂 Pity someone didn't think of using referendum as the gerund .... it's certainly something to drink to forget!

Michael Ixer ● 2600d

Thank you Michael. Made my Sunday!

Caroline Whitehead ● 2600d

Brilliant,Mike. Can you provide the source. Thanks

Jane Carter ● 2600d

Have to admit to nicking it from my wife's FB post, it been doing the rounds for a while but I don't know the original source. Also feeling jealous as a friend's just posted a pic of Octoberfest on FB from a sunny Munich!

Michael Ixer ● 2600d