Forum Topic

Brexit option 2016 In or out

For those of you who think we didn't know what we were voting for in 2016 please watch this video that Chantal kindly posted on another thread.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPcmebRH904 To the decent Remainers I respect your opinion, as you accept the result and just like the rest of us you want to get on with it.Many months ago on this forum I predicted riots in this country if Brexit is cancelled and overturned and now more and more prominent people are coming out and saying the same thing. The riots will be a result of the Remoaners and Reversers not accepting democracy.Iv'e no doubt the Remain MPs will try and bring this country to it's knees before the next GE.Lets get the General Election done and lets get rid of these rotten 290 MPs who aren't representing their Brexit voting constituencies.After all 415 constituencies voted to leave which represents 65% of constituencies.Why are Labour and the Lib Dems so scared to have a GE?Lol, we all know the answer!# UKdemocracyisdeadinthewater

Paul Game ● 2600d63 Comments

Completely agree with you Paul.

Bunny Payne ● 2600d

I don't comment much on this forum due to the anti-Brexit bias, much like the BBC and the MSM.But as sad as it is, you put across an accurate account of the current situation and what is to come for the country.

Mike Essam ● 2600d

"After all 415 constituencies voted to leave which represents 65% of constituencies"."The results of the EU referendum weren’t counted by parliamentary constituency, so we don’t know for sure how constituencies voted" in most cases. (FullFact). We didn't vote by constituency, so 415 is just an estimate. "62% of constituencies" sounds far more overwhelming than the actual voting figures which still remain 52% to 48% of those who actually voted. A very close result and too close for such a large-scale permanent gamble. 13 million voters did not even vote in the referendum. "I've no doubt the Remain MPs will try and bring this country to it's knees before the next GE."Really, and how will they do that? Any real ideas?"Why are Labour and the Lib Dems so scared to have a GE?Lol, we all know the answer!"Yes, they want to get an extension and prevent a no-deal Brexit on October 31st. The election will come after that.

David Ainsworth ● 2600d

"I don't comment much on this forum due to the anti-Brexit bias, much like the BBC and the MSM."Would you bother to comment then if we were mostly Leavers? Would there be any point?

David Ainsworth ● 2600d

Paul I thought you may enjoy this quote from Morpheus in the matrix - came to me recently and seems apt in some ways for some of our politician (and possibly others) 😉“The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. When you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of people we're trying to save, but until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand that most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it. “

Mike Warman ● 2599d

"You see them on the street. You watch them on TV. You might even vote for one this fall. You think they're people just like you. You're wrong. Dead wrong."Just put on the special sunglasses ...

David Ainsworth ● 2599d

As I submitted it David, I smiled wryly thinking that might elicit a rapid  response from Ainsworth towers.  Nice to see I was right ;-)

Mike Warman ● 2599d

Haha fantastic Mike.You always find some good quotes and links.Sums it up nicely :-)

Paul Game ● 2599d

OK, so I am getting too predictable. Certainly over-productive.

David Ainsworth ● 2599d

So did you take the red pill or the blue pill?

David Ainsworth ● 2599d

Oh David, stop being silly.  Paul has made a perfectly good point and we end up with a childish argument.

Bunny Payne ● 2599d

But Miss, it's not fair! Mike Warman first brought up "The Matrix", not me!-------------------Wikipedia:-"The red pill, together with its opposite, the blue pill, is a popular cultural meme, a metaphor representing a choice between the "red pill", representing a life of harsh knowledge, desperate freedom, and the brutal truths of reality, and the "blue pill", representing a life of luxurious security, tranquil happiness, and the blissful ignorance of the harsh realities of life, basking in an (essentially dishonest) illusion. The terms, popularized in science fiction culture, are directly derived from a scene in the 1999 film The Matrix."

David Ainsworth ● 2599d

"Many months ago on this forum I predicted riots in this country if Brexit is cancelled and overturned and now more and more prominent people are coming out and saying the same thing."Who?

Sarah Roberts ● 2599d

Here's a short and good article on why there will not be riots. Basically because the majority of leavers are too old or geographically disparate.https://politicalmotivation.com/2019/09/30/leave-riots-arent-real/

Matt Palmer ● 2598d

But what about the riots which might happen if a No-Deal Brexit gets through?

David Ainsworth ● 2598d

@Sarah Sounds like you are another Remainer who has her head buried in the sand and only believes what she hears on the BBC?Of course there will be riots. How naive can people be to think otherwise if the biggest democratic vote this country has ever seen gets overturned by this treacherous Remain Parliament.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7510453/Cabinet-minister-warns-Britain-erupt-violence-rioting-Brexit-not-delivered.htmlhttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7522415/Tory-chairman-James-Cleverly-fears-riots-Brexit-doesnt-happen-October-31.html@David Why would people riot if the Government are just carrying out the instruction from the democratic vote in 2016 which was leave?After all it was in the manifestos prior to the 2016 vote and all the big players including Cameron, Blair and Major said it was an in/out once in a lifetime vote and there would be no second vote.Watch the video below to recap your memory.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPcmebRH904

Paul Game ● 2598d

It is part of their Operation Fear to announce how they fear that there may be riots. It is a tactic that won't work."@David Why would people riot if the Government are just carrying out the instruction from the democratic vote in 2016 which was leave?"The referendum was not an "instruction" to Parliament. As you know, it was an advisory referendum.Anyway, you think that it is perfectly understandable for some people to riot because 17m people will not get their way, but somehow impossible to understand why some people might riot because 16m people will not get their way? "After all it was in the manifestos prior to the 2016 vote and all the big players including Cameron, Blair and Major said it was an in/out once in a lifetime vote and there would be no second vote."You may remember that many things were said and promised in that campaign. Not all of them were correct. Nor do-able. And the most important person in the holding of that referendum did a bunk the next day after the result, when he realised what an intractable mess he had made.

David Ainsworth ● 2598d

@Paul. Project fear: if Brexit doesn't happen people will riot? Riots are more likely to occur if there are food, medicine or fuel shortages, high price rises, job losses, etc. That won't happen if we remain as the status quo will continue but according to the government's Yellowhammer report there's a reasonable chance of some of those occurring if we exit without a deal. Most people won't riot because if it results in a criminal record it affects their job prospects, or they're retired so it's too uncomfortable or inconvenient; there might be a minority of right wing thugs who might but it's a sport to them, like it is to some Millwall fans?

Michael Ixer ● 2598d

well lets hope the riots are as bad as the ones that were threatened if we didnt leave on March 31st

Matt Palmer ● 2598d

Matt. It's the 21st century. We have virtual riots on the Putney community forum 🙂

Michael Ixer ● 2598d

“But Miss, it's not fair! Mike Warman first brought up "The Matrix", not me!”It’s true.  The actual quote less bleak than the link David pasted I think something like thisTake the blue pill, wake up tomorrow and believe whatever you want to believe.  Take the red pill and find how deep the rabbit hole goes.Of course Neo takes the red pill otherwise it would have been a shorter film!Must admit one of my favourite movies.  Ayahuasca is sometimes referred to as the red pill but I wouldn’t want to recommend it to timid souls like David ;-)

Mike Warman ● 2598d

"Ayahuasca is sometimes referred to as the red pill but I wouldn’t want to recommend it to timid souls like David"Might be alright. It appears to be brewed.

David Ainsworth ● 2598d

I think it's totally irresponsible of anyone to talk up the possibility of riots over brexit. There are so many groups and general thugs who woujd love an excuse to go out thieving and disrupting under cover of Brexit. Look how the thieves and thugs used the Tottenham riot to go out looting across London. Oh by the way I voted out

Andy Pike ● 2597d

@ PaulIf you have no faith in the BBC's coverage of Brexit which sources other than the Daily Mail would you recommend I tap into please?

Sarah Roberts ● 2597d

"I think it's totally irresponsible of anyone to talk up the possibility of riots over brexit."Couldn't agree more. It's as if these people actually want and would relish riots in that scenario. And they accuse the remain camp of project fear and all that codswallop.

Freddie Francis ● 2597d

Andy, Freddie. Agree on this. Talk of rioting is just trying to stir up trouble!e and fear.

Michael Ixer ● 2597d

Thankyou Andy and totally agree

Jane Carter ● 2597d

I agree Andy. Leave it to lowlife types like Tommy Robinson.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2597d

I am reminded of the H L Mencken quote “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.”Otherwise known as “careful what you wish for”.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2597d

How many  people who read  and/or contribute to this forum protested against the Poll Tax? Or the  war in Iraq? Serious question. How is this stuation  any different and why shouldn't we protest and/or riot?I was working in New York in 1988 - 1990 and  personally feel that the dangerous situation currently facing the UK is far worse than anything British people have gone through since WWII. It is not 'project fear' as Brexiteers are so fond of stating. It's a fact that we plunge into the unknown on October 31st and if we go back on the GFA then no country is going to trust us to keep our word again.If I was a shade younger I'd be at Westminster protesting and, if necessary, rioting. Happy to chain myself to railings if I thought it would help. #MumsandGranniesAgainstBrexitJane, if this makes me a low life, so be it! #StopBrexit

Lucille Grant ● 2597d

Lucille, sorry but it was Jonathan who referred to Tommy Robinson as a low life and I agree with him. I did actually protest against the war in Iraq as did many others. However the protest was entirely peaceful - we were even supported by priests from the nearby Westminster Cathedral. I would make a distinction between peaceful protest which is an essential part of a democracy and rioting which is not.

Jane Carter ● 2597d

Jane - sad to say but peaceful protests get  people nowhere as far as I can tell. I've been on plenty of those.Would really like to hear from someone who participated in the Poll Tax riots ...

Lucille Grant ● 2597d

https://twitter.com/Change_Britain/status/1179355722380976129

Paul Game ● 2597d

@ Lucille, I went on the anti-poll tax march.  Aged 22.

Sarah Roberts ● 2597d

Isn't arch Brexiteers Farage married to a German? His kids continue to have FOM as a result. #hypocrite

Lucille Grant ● 2597d

Hi Sarah were the poll tax demos actually riots? I seem to remember they were reported as such  but I wasn't here at the time. MSM was more reliable re reporting back then. My memory isn't as good as it used to be though!

Lucille Grant ● 2597d

There was ‘a’ riot in Trafalgar Square. That’s undeniable. I was there. Riots plural there was not, as far as my memory serves me. Riots over Brexit? Wishful thinking by the insecure and rattled.

Freddie Francis ● 2597d

Thatcher will be turning in her grave at the disregard in parliament of the referendum result.It seems one or two of her supporters have gone a bit soft in their old age lol

Paul Game ● 2596d

I'm sure I'm not the only Remainer who feels insecure and extremely angry Freddie.

Lucille Grant ● 2596d

@Paul. Interesting that Thatcher's downfall commenced with her imposing the poll tax on the Scottish nation, one wonders if imposing Brexit on a Scotland that voted to remain will lead to regrets for the current government? Similarly, two borders in Northern Ireland seems a rather odd solution when the aim of the GFA was no borders ... Goodbye "United" Kingdom?

Michael Ixer ● 2596d

Good point about Thatcher Michael. Also question for you please.Do you find it odd that Sturgeon wants to be part of the EU but not part of the UK?

Paul Game ● 2596d

Paul, you keep quoting from the Daily Mail. Since you disparage the BBC Is this your only news or do you use others please?

Sarah Roberts ● 2596d

Lol fair point Sarah.Like your humour😀

Paul Game ● 2596d

@Paul. I don't agree with Sturgeon or the SNP on this but I can understand their feeling that the UK is too biased towards London and the south east and hence they want more control locally over their own destiny. However, Scotland to leaving the UK has to be an option if it wishes to remain in the EU. 

Michael Ixer ● 2596d

"Do you find it odd that Sturgeon wants to be part of the EU but not part of the UK?"I don't. If you do, please let us know why.

David Ainsworth ● 2596d

Delete the "to" after Scotland!🙂

Michael Ixer ● 2596d

Hi Lucille,Yes the poll tax demos turned in to actual riots. It was a beautiful sunny day and the march started off in Kennington very peacefully.  There were huge crowds along Whitehall and I weaved my way to the steps of a large grey building just before Downing Street.  I climbed up onto the balustrade of the building to get a birds eye view where I could see black anarchist flags among the crowd nearer to No. 10 and suddenly smoke bombs went off among them. That's when things started to turn nasty.  I had a photographer pulling at my jeans trying to pull me off my vantage position and when I refused he passed his camera to me and told me to let off the entire reel of film.  Reel after reel.  If you remember around this time the police used a strategy of kettling - confinement by police of a group of demonstrators or protesters in a small area, as a method of crowd control.  I was forced to move up to Trafalgar square which was packed just as riot police flooded out of the South African High commission on the Strand  That's when things turned really nasty and protestors began pulling scaffolding, planks of wood, benches masonry, ironmongery, fence posts to defend themselves from the riot police.  The police incited rioting and reading all the press coverage the next day there was only one newspaper which covered the riots accurately, in my view, and that was The Daily Telegraph.  I took refuge in a cafe on Ducannon Street which runs alongside St Martins in the Field.  It had a large plate glass window.  I stood watching on in horror as police on horseback lined up and charged at protesters from one end of the street to the other over and over. I saw a guy with a camera grabbed by a riot police officer pulled to the ground by his camera strap, the camera ripped off him and the camera smashed against the wall right next to me. The riot officer then smashed the plate glass window with his batton right in our faces.  The glass distorted with the force.  I will never forget the look of pure malevolent hate on that officer's face.  After that I remember trying to get back home to Finsbury Park through the West End witnessing cars on fire, shop windows broken, looting.  I also attended the Right to Party protest which was loud but peaceful and the Make Tea Not War anti-Iraq march also peaceful.  I will make a point of attending the Stop Brexit March with every member of my family - three generations - on Saturday 12th and like you I am angry and worried.

Sarah Roberts ● 2596d

No Paul.  It was not a joke.  It was an observation.Please can I ask you again, what are your recommended sources for news. What do you read?  What do you listen to?

Sarah Roberts ● 2596d

Michael, I think you hit the nail on the head with your summary. Sturgeon certainly has a dislike of anything Westminster.

Paul Game ● 2596d

Hi Sarah, Well for starters, as you probably guessed I dont watch BBC news, Sky news or CH4 news. Far too much Remainer bias for me.Radio hosts I listen to: Farage, JHB, Ian Dale, Maajid Nawaz, JRM, James Whale to name a few.A host of people I follow on twitter including Candace Owens and Douglas Murray which then links me to various other info/new sources.Many people with their own youtube channel I also watch.Just reading Douglas Murray's new book.How about you Sarah?What floats your boat?

Paul Game ● 2596d

I really think Scotland should be allowed to have another independence referendum because they voted to remain in the EU and the Brexit vote goes against the wishes of the Scottish people.  So many times I've read people on this forum scoff at the term 'will of the people' but it has to be respected and if a second independence referendum goes against the SNP again at least it might stop Sturgeon carping on and on about the issue.🙄

Sue Hammond ● 2596d

Perhaps there should be some sort of preliminary discussion of the form a customs border between England and Independent Scotland should take? I don't think that Hadrian's Wall would be of much use.Mind you, there may need to be some form of division of England itself between Remain and Leave? I'd favour some form of marchland running on a line between the Wash and the Severn Estuary, I think, although that would probably need quite large population transfers (voluntary, obviously).

David Ainsworth ● 2596d

Hi Sue, hope you're good.You make a good point about Sturgeon.Lucky for us she wasn't representing Brexit leading  into the 2016 referendum.I'm sure the vote would have tipped 5% the other way if she was in the live debates as a Brexiteer instead of a Remainer.#happydays

Paul Game ● 2596d

From the early reaction in Ireland, the DUP excepted, Johnson’s new deal is going to struggle. Will the price of Brexit be the end of the peace process in Northern Ireland, as Dublin now fears?  Just when will the price of Brexit be too high?Ireland always was the circle Theresa May failed to square (Michael Ixer offered a mathematical if not geometric solution) and Johnson has improved on her efforts only in the eyes of the ERG and the DUP. I fear this will not be enough. If the UK upsets the delicate balance in NI there is nobody else to blame. The problems of the north of Ireland were always our responsibility and it would be irresponsible to try to proceed with any changes that do not carry the support of all the communities there.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2596d

Haha a great post David.I'm sure Hadrian's wall could be useful if it were patched up a little bit along the way as necessary.How about in Putney if we divided north and south of the river?We could have security gates on the bridges and day pass availability to cross, and only if invited by a friend?

Paul Game ● 2596d

Ha ha, Jonathan. Actually, Johnson's deal reminds me of those spoof mathematical proofs of 1=2. Superficially they look fine, particularly if you don't really understand the maths, but when you spot the divide by zero you know why it's wrong. Johnson's deal seems to be viewed favourably by the ERG and DUP, but the "divide by zero" seems to be its dependency on the Stormont Parliament. Has he got the republican parties on side with that? If not it seems its based on a false premise.

Michael Ixer ● 2596d

The detailed documentation for the alternative to the backstop is now available  ...

Michael Ixer ● 2596d

Good one. And I wonder where the leftover plank belongs?

David Ainsworth ● 2596d

It wasn't a joke Sarah. It was an observation.Can I ask you again as I answered for you. What are your recommended sources for news. What do you read? What do you listen to?

Paul Game ● 2596d

David, I think this one is better ...https://newsthump.com/2019/10/02/government-proposes-schrodingers-irish-border-which-exists-when-you-want-sovereignty-and-doesnt-exist-when-you-want-frictionless-trade/Well, I do but you need to like quantum theory and cosmology ... as a quantum physicist once said to me: I can do tha maths and I know it works 'cause we have lasers but I'm not too sure what it really means 🙂

Michael Ixer ● 2596d

I see, I misspelt plank. It should be the Planck Scale. Apparently it is the universal limit. No wonder then that Boris Johnson is carrying the plan(c)k. He is after all the absolute limit.----------------------"The Planck scale is the universal limit, beyond which the currently known laws of physics break."

David Ainsworth ● 2596d

I don't have any "recommended" sources for news and I avoid ranters, pundits and phone ins.  I wake up to the Today programme, I then turn over to Virgin radio for the school run - my children love Chris Evans. At 10 I have Robert Elms BBC London on in the background or Spotify while I work (except on Tuesdays).  I might catch the TV news at 10pm but rarely turn on the telly for any ATV programme.  I have three children under 12.  Free time is limited. I prefer to pick up a book at night to switch off before I conk out. I read whatever is available at home at the weekends.  Observer, Telegraph, FT, The Week, The Economist, 1863, New Scientist, Yachting World.  I gave up reading Love is Blind by William Boyd half way through, I've just read Path by Louisa Thomsen Brits and The Poetry Pharmacy. I'm now off to bed with a cookery book because I've a band coming to stay at the weekend and need to work out what to feed eight vegans.  The book is called Bosh.  Last night I took Professor Brian Cox and Joe Rogan to bed and they were fantastic.

Sarah Roberts ● 2595d

Thanks for your reply Sarah. Very eloquently put.Wow a busy weekend in store for you.Have fun and enjoy :-)

Paul Game ● 2595d