Forum Topic

Just a reminder

The 2016 referendum was not legally binding."the European Union Referendum Act 2015 didn’t say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one." The UK differs from many other countries in this."Former diplomat Brian Barder says that:“members of parliament owe the electorate their own best judgement of the national interest—taking into account the referendum result—not their obedience to the opinions of a narrow majority in a referendum or otherwise”.""In a parliamentary democracy, as barrister Rupert Myers bluntly puts it, “the people are not sovereign”."https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/?utm_source=content_page&utm_medium=related_contentAnd Article 50 can be revoked.Riot if you feel you must, but accept the responsibility. It is your choice. It may be a good or a bad choice, but it remains your choice. It is not forced on you by the words or deeds of others. And do remember - your age, your weight, your heart. There are only so many cardiac unit beds available.-----------------------------------"Edmund Burke ... told the voters of Bristol that an MP “owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion”."

David Ainsworth ● 2600d24 Comments

Just a reminder:When we voted in the Referendum, we weren’t told that one vote to Leave was worth 2 votes to Remain.  If the Remain votes were in London, well you can probably count that as 3 votes.  That’s how it feels to those of us who voted to Leave, our votes count for very little against the Remainers.

Martine Guy ● 2600d

I think that that feeling was around long before the Referendum, but it does underlay much of the resentment and anger which helped produce the Leave majority. However I do not think that it is really the fault of the EU. The inequalities of the UK are the product, mostly, of the UK.

David Ainsworth ● 2600d

Well you aren’t helping are you?  I know several Brexiteers around Putney and they are mostly the less well off, as are the Brexiteers that I know outside London.  The message that is coming across is that they don’t count.  Work hard, pay your taxes, but your vote isn’t worth as much as the wealthy upper middle class who live in London.

Martine Guy ● 2600d

I think Martine you missed the point.You mention Brexiteers in Putney who are mostly the less well off.  It has been pointed out many times that people in England (other than the big cities) were protesting against austerity and its impact.Austerity was not imposed by the EU; it was imposed by the UK Government. In the same way that the rules on shipping kippers from the Isle of Man were imposed by the British Government and not the EU.  The Brexit vote in most cases was a protest vote against the government but the EU was, in the end, the "scapegoat".

Ivonne Holliday ● 2600d

"Work hard, pay your taxes, but your vote isn’t worth as much as the wealthy upper middle class who live in London."Do the Brexiteers blame this on the EU? Will things improve for them after a (No-Deal) Brexit? And will things worsen for rich Londoners?

David Ainsworth ● 2600d

This is a typical post from a bitter loser suggesting that 'the vote wasn't binding' in 2016.The important thing is that it doesn't matter why someone voted to leave, no-one has to justify their decision.Remainers have been throwing insults for the last 3 years. No-one that voted leave has to prove they are a decent person. People had the right to vote, there were two choices. When the votes were added more people voted to leave - that's the only justification you needs to leave the EU. It's called democracy.Putney was one of the 37.5 % Remain constituencies but an overwhelming 62.5% constituencies voted to leave. The London elite need to remember they don't speak for the whole country.

Paul Game ● 2600d

But Paul, the irony is that neither do you speak for the whole of England.  Very sad, but true.The result of the referendum did come as a shock.But fast forward to today, the Withdrawal Agreement was not acceptable.  Now we have a government that says we leave come what may.I would have thought that a leave that does not damage the UK to be more sensible.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2600d

Martine, your vote did count. That’s why, for more than three years, the government has been doing their best to implement the vote to leave the EU. Unfortunately, as the best deal is the one we already have today, they won’t be able to do any better. Saying that it would be ‘the easiest deal in history’ was simply a lie, and focusing on trade alone was not giving the full information on the great benefits we get from being EU citizens, for only 0.7% of our taxes. It doesn’t matter how you voted before. What matters is what happens next. Democracy is a process, not an event. Any form of Brexit would take the rest of our adult lives to reach any end-state (and we still don’t know what that is). I’m sure very many of us are fed up with it all already. I for one don’t want to ‘get Brexit done’, understanding that that would just be the start of the beginning. I want to see Brexit gone, as would the many people who have already lost their jobs; the ‘expats’ who now understand they wouldn’t be entitled to reciprocal healthcare; people in the UK who have been warned of medicine shortages and food shortages; people married to an EU27 citizen who were told that nothing would change, who now see that being a lie. The list goes on. My dad has changed his mind, or maybe I’ve just worn him down. My mum has not changed her mind (EU criminals, BMW, fishing, that type of thing), but she is sick to death of it all and just wants it to go away. The only way to do that is to Stop Brexit.

Clare Noeken ● 2600d

"This is a typical post from a bitter loser suggesting that 'the vote wasn't binding' in 2016."It was not binding. It was not set up to be binding. "The important thing is that it doesn't matter why someone voted to leave, no-one has to justify their decision."Probably that's for the best, too. It's about feelings, isn't it?"When the votes were added more people voted to leave - that's the only justification you needs to leave the EU."Not according to the Act which set up the referendum."Putney was one of the 37.5 % Remain constituencies but an overwhelming 62.5% constituencies voted to leave."Ummm, far more overwhelming propaganda if expressed in that cunning way. But it is exactly the same as just under 52% of the votes voting Leave and just over 48% voting Remain. People will understand why you express it your way. It remains very close to a draw, and far too close to justify such major changes. "The London elite need to remember they don't speak for the whole country."Remind Citizens Johnson and Rees-Mogg of that when next you bump into them in The Ivy.

David Ainsworth ● 2600d

No, the London elite don't speak for the whole country, but across the union of the U.K., Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar all voted to remain in the EU. Wales would now compaign for remain, and actually their vote to leave has recently been seen to be as a result of English people living there.  People living in England have been most affected by job losses so far as a result of the vote to leave.  There's nothing wrong in changing your mind as the facts change or become clearer. No-one voted to be poorer, for food and medicine shortages. You can't have too much democracy.

Clare Noeken ● 2600d

I feel for your poor father, and think you are wearing us all down Clare, so please watch the mendacious turncoats on this video clip.  I would love to pit some of the obsessive remainers on here against those in the fishing industry.  Real people with real jobs , who put food on your table are clearly not feeling the benefits of the trade bloc of 6 nations we joined in the 70s. The Dutch have decimated our waters with electronic trawling.  As an eco-activist, what are your thoughts on the matter?  French fishing methods have caused over a thousand dead dolphins, caught in barbaric netting, to wash up dead on their Atlantic beaches.The country voted Conservative, and a Conservative PM gave us a binding referendum result, with the distinct possibility of leaving on WTO terms.  The constituencies voted overwhelmingly to leave the EU.  More people voted for Brexit in Scotland than SNP.  Apart from London and Scotland, every region voted for Brexit in the EU parliamentary elections.Could you remind me when we voted for Gina Miller?I hope the XR gathering allows you dissipate some of your palpable anger, suitably dressed as a dolphin, rather than endless online tirades against those who voted differently to you.

Chantal Blake-Milton ● 2599d

Well said Chantal.

Sue Hammond ● 2599d

Who sold off the fishing quotas then?

David Ainsworth ● 2599d

"The country voted Conservative, and a Conservative PM gave us a binding referendum result, with the distinct possibility of leaving on WTO terms."The country certainly didn't vote Conservative in 2017 (which is why we have a hung parliament) and the referendum was NOT binding (how many times do we have to repeat this point?). Many, including Johnson, Rees-Mogg and even Dominic Cummings (https://dominiccummings.com/2015/06/23/on-the-referendum-6-exit-plans-and-a-second-referendum/) argued for a two stage process. And few even mentioned WTO terms in the run-up to the referendum.

Richard Carter ● 2599d

Marvellously put Chantal.  You talk so much sense and again thank-you for the link to the clip of the parliamentarian liars.It was good to be reminded of all the hypocritical MPs who will soon all be out of a job for failing to represent their constituencies.

Paul Game ● 2599d

"I would love to pit some of the obsessive remainers on here against those in the fishing industry.  Real people with real jobs , who put food on your table are clearly not feeling the benefits of the trade bloc of 6 nations we joined in the 70s."There's a really good article about who actually owns the UK fishing rights after successive sold off the rights to the UK quota - that's the UK gov, not the EUFull article is here https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/Here's some stats for youThe five largest quota-holders control more than a third of UK fishing quotaFour of the top five belong to families on the Sunday Times Rich ListThe fifth is a Dutch multinational whose UK subsidiary – North Atlantic Fishing Company – controls around a quarter of England’s fishing quotaAround half of England’s quota is ultimately owned by Dutch, Icelandic, or Spanish interestsMore than half (13) of the top 25 quota holders have directors, shareholders, or vessel partners who were convicted of offences in Scotland’s £63m “black fish” scam – a huge, sophisticated fraud that saw trawlermen and fish processors working together to evade quota limits and land 170,000 tonnes of undeclared herring and mackerelOne of the flagships of the “Brexit flotilla” – which sailed up the Thames in 2016 to demand the UK’s exit from the EU – is among the UK’s 10 biggest quota-holdersAround 29% of UK fishing quota is directly controlled by Rich List families. Some of these families have investments in dozens of other fishing companies, meaning companies holding 37% of UK quota are wholly or partly owned by these Rich List families.

Matt Palmer ● 2599d

@chantalYou need to pay more attention i'm afraid. Clare does Brexit, I do XR. Hope that clarifies

Matt Palmer ● 2599d

"represent their constituencies" As usual you think that representatives are delegates.

David Ainsworth ● 2599d

Some of you on here that chose to ignore our fishing Industries have been decimated by the EU are an absolute selfish disgrace.Get out of your little Putney bubble and for a change try to appreciate how life has changed for the worse for most in the British fishing Industry and the working class.I guess even watching this video many on here will suggest the guys in the video are talking out of their arse!Shame on you all!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPKO3O4y4Mo

Paul Game ● 2599d

Chantal, as a remain supporter who is veggie, near vegan, I can't image that anyone from the fishing industry would be interested in listening to my opinion, unless they're looking at alternative business ventures to protect their future income.

Michael Ixer ● 2599d

Tbf Matt it is quite hard to keep track of who is moaning and protesting about which issue, especially in long threads. I think of you two as the Moaning Minnies, in a nice way of course.😇

Sue Hammond ● 2599d

A recent Guardian opinion article for you:-“One man’s fish is another man’s poisson. Not for much longer, it seems.French fishermen are growing alarmed. They fear a no-deal Brexit will exclude them from “British” waters where they have fished for centuries. The same applies to fishers from Ireland, Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands and Germany.More surprisingly (to some), fears of a cliff-edge Brexit are also sending waves of panic through parts of the UK fishing industry. Changes in quotas demand patient negotiation, not instant abrogation of centuries-old rights. No negotiation has startedAfter years of one-sided propaganda – “our fish”, “plundering Europeans”, “a sea of opportunity” – a more complicated picture of European fishing benefits and losses is finally breaking the surface.The nets of the UK and its maritime neighbours have been inextricably tangled for centuries. Cutting them apart will be calamitous for some European fleets – especially for boats from Brittany, Normandy and the Pas de Calais. It will also be disastrous for locally important and ecologically sustainable parts of the British industry.Fisheries (0.12% of the UK economy) have been a powerful symbol for Brexiteers. They may now become one of the starkest examples of the folly of no deal.British shellfish sales to the EU (mostly France and Spain) are worth £430m a year – more than a quarter of all UK fish exports by value. They are vital to small-scale fishermen in Scotland and the West Country. They will be devastated overnight if the UK loses paper-free access to the EU single market.The promised instant bonanza for longer-distance British fishing fleets has also drifted into a fog bank. With just over two months remaining before a potential no-deal B-Day, utter confusion reigns in Whitehall on what will happen to fishing law and fishing rights on 1 November.Will EU boats be excluded immediately, as the Brexit party and its acolyte Fishing for Leave stridently insist? Who will enforce the new rules or lack of rules when the Royal Navy has only 12 protection vessels to cover a sea area three times the size of the UK? Will British boats be able to fish whatever and wherever they want to fish?One fishing industry leader said: “The word is that, if no deal happens, EU quotas will probably be maintained until the end of the year and maybe longer. But on what legal basis? And what happens then? After 10 years of government cuts, the civil service no longer has the manpower or institutional knowledge to sort out stuff like this.””https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/31/myth-brexit-bonanza-uk-fishing-exposed-no-deal#comment-132548788

David Ainsworth ● 2599d

aaaah, thanks Sue :)

Matt Palmer ● 2599d

The very good film "Bait" has an interesting take on the Cornish fishing industry. Fishermen can now earn more from using their boats to take tourists round the bay than for going out fishing.

Caroline Whitehead ● 2599d