Forum Topic

Norwich Council Estate Wins RIBA Stirling Prize!

https://www.architecture.com/knowledge-and-resources/knowledge-landing-page/norwich-council-estate-named-uks-best-new-building-2019-riba-stirling-prize-winnerhttps://www.architecture.com/awards-and-competitions-landing-page/awards/riba-regional-awards/riba-east-award-winners/2019/goldsmith-streetPassivhaus Buildings.  Wouldn't it be good if a lot more of the new building that we see going up around London was like this and paid good attention to the fact that we need buildings to be built to take account of climate change and allow for both low tech and high tech solutions.

Philippa Bond ● 2590d37 Comments

Brilliant.  Yes, I agree.  It would be good to see more developments of similar high quality of design.  I really like the light brickwork, big windows. I wonder how sound proof they are though.Thank you for sharing.

Sarah Roberts ● 2589d

I thought these terraces of homes was an extremely worthy  Stirling winner this year.Would love to see  similar developments being built. Think of what the  riverside  from Wandsworth to Vauxhall could have looked  like if WBC had the foresight and bravery to have done the same. Silly me. The developers wouldn't have made  enough money.

Lucille Grant ● 2588d

In 3 years they'll have the right to buy so sub letting is not far off. It's a great build and a worthy winner with hand picked tenants no doubt. Hope if they revisit in 10 years it's the same.

Andy Pike ● 2588d

"In 3 years they'll have the right to buy so sub letting is not far off. It's a great build and a worthy winner with hand picked tenants no doubt. Hope if they revisit in 10 years it's the same."Would you prefer that these new houses were sold off immediately?

David Ainsworth ● 2588d

Of course not I'd prefer they weren't sold off at all and were somehow protected from rtb so that other generations f Norwich tenants could benefit from this scheme.

Andy Pike ● 2588d

More importantly the fortunate residents of these taxpayer subsidised properties, should be routinely assessed to ensure that they continue to be in need of help to put a roof over their heads. Some of us spend a lifetime in the real world, where if you want something good you first have to earn the money to pay for it.

Mike Harris ● 2588d

Subsidised?  Cheaper to build and without the design changes and problems of a developer requiring a cut and refusing to include social housing?

Philippa Bond ● 2588d

As with all council owned properties they are let out at rent levels significantly below the market rate for the same units. Subsidised accommodation for the fortunate residents.

Mike Harris ● 2588d

One of the reasons that people used to like to buy their Council homes was because they were better built than those built by many developers to make a quick buck.  They earned their way through their good and solid design and workmanship and good space standards - and the return in rent was good.  Very expensive flats built to sell abroad and in some cases only advertised abroad does nothing to provide homes for those in this country who can't afford them.  Many 'hard working' families are also on benefits.  Right to Buy for ideological reasons without being allowed to replace has and still is causing misery to our society.

Philippa Bond ● 2587d

@Philippa 100% agree. The  money from Right to Buy should have been used to provide more social housing. Subsequent Governments since Thatcher's have done nothing to change the status quo.@Mike 'More importantly the fortunate residents of these taxpayer subsidised properties, should be routinely assessed to ensure that they continue to be in need of help to put a roof over their heads. Some of us spend a lifetime in the real world, where if you want something good you first have to earn the money to pay for it.'Wow Mike - I'll tell my 30 something daughter that she needs to 'live in the real world' and not rely on 'tax payers subsidies'. Sure she  doesn't want to  be beholden to other tax payers (note: she is one herself).As with many of her contemporaries she earns a reasonable salary but there is no way she can afford to buy her own home and London rents are extortionate. Unlike in Thatcher's day it is young people in their 20s and 30s who are unable to buy their own homes as previous generations could. Council owned  homes are  needed for 'middle class' people as  much as for  'working class' ones which you appear to diss.

Lucille Grant ● 2587d

"More importantly the fortunate residents of these taxpayer subsidised properties, should be routinely assessed to ensure that they continue to be in need of help to put a roof over their heads. Some of us spend a lifetime in the real world, where if you want something good you first have to earn the money to pay for it."My father got subsidised world travel for 6 years. He went to Dunkirk, Iran, Sicily, Anzio, and North-West Germany. He at least got the full trip, unlike my mother's brother who only got as far as Singapore, and her cousin (trained as a flier in the USA) who got to fly in a wonderful Lancaster for all of 6 missions, before stopping for good over Orleans. Another uncle spent the war in the Far East, after which he never seems to have been well and died quite young.Some of them did not get a chance to spend a lifetime in the real world, but they did something good. Were they adequately paid for it?Seven years after the war, we got a new council house.

David Ainsworth ● 2587d

My sympathies David - like your uncle my father 'spent the war in the Far East' beaten to an inch of his life by the Japanese. He did live a decent  life span  but his health was precarious as a direct result.

Lucille Grant ● 2587d

I remember there beings lots of prefabs near/in Bordon when I was young.  I understood they had been built to house people after the war.

Philippa Bond ● 2586d

Council homes aren't subsidised by the taxpayer. Even with social rents at £100 a week, over their lifetime they pay for themselves and their maintenance. The main scandal of Right to Buy is that the council loses the proceeds of the sale as well as the property, though there are now ways they can get round this.

Peter Evans ● 2586d

Philippa - lots of prefabs were  built just after the war exactly as you recall.

Lucille Grant ● 2586d

Peter I didn't know that councils can keep the sales proceeds of the  properties they sell  through RTB. What is done with the money?

Lucille Grant ● 2586d

They can only keep the proceeds so lo g as they reinvest in building new replacement units. This is relatively recent (about 7 years) legislation. However if you hi e 100k discount then your new build kitty is somewhat depleted.

Andy Pike ● 2586d

Seems a strong argument against selling them off at all.

Jane Carter ● 2586d

Thanks Lucille. The effects on survivors and their families are still being felt. I think that these losses affected my mother a lot, and thus indirectly had some effect on me, although I was born shortly after the war.

David Ainsworth ● 2586d

See full pre-Stirling prize article with lovely photographs which I don't know how to post on here  https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2019/jul/16/norwich-goldsmith-street-social-housing-green-design

Philippa Bond ● 2586d

There's research that illustrates the  children of survivors  are affected by what happened before their birth, David. I was also a post-war baby and I hate that children today will carry the sufferings of their parents involved in war such as the latest one inflicted on the Kurds by Trump and Erdogan. 'When will they ever learn?'

Lucille Grant ● 2586d

We chose to go into Iraq.  We chose not to go into Syria. Half of Syria's population has left the country.  What did we expect?

Philippa Bond ● 2586d

"We chose to go into Iraq"..... and look what happened!"We chose not to go into Syria" ..... and look what happened!So?

Caroline Whitehead ● 2586d

They are subsidised Peter. If in your example the market rent on a property is £200pw and the tenant is only paying £100pw then a taxpayer asset is being rented out below market rate. Taxpayers are subsidising the extremely fortunate occupant to the tune of £100pw. Worst of all there is no on going/periodic means testing to ensure that they still need the financial assistance from the rest of us.

Mike Harris ● 2586d

"If in your example the market rent on a property is £200pw and the tenant is only paying £100pw then a taxpayer asset is being rented out below market rate. Taxpayers are subsidising the extremely fortunate occupant to the tune of £100pw."So should the council charge the full market rent or just leave housing construction and provision to the private sector alone?

David Ainsworth ● 2586d

How much do the Councils have to pay out to private landlords for very unsatisfactory accommodation?

Philippa Bond ● 2586d

https://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2012/jan/27/government-subsidised-social-housing-rent

Philippa Bond ● 2586d

The Welfare State in this country is far too large and far too generous, this also applies to the provision of accommodation. Yes, much of the provision should be left to the private sector. People should be taught from a young age to stand on their own two feet, and not expect to survive on taxpayer hand outs. They should understand the need to live within their means, and not expect to have the 'right' to live comfortably in one of the world's most desirable and expensive cities. The priority as always should be to reduce the tax burden.

Mike Harris ● 2586d

Tax should be fair and progressive. Trickle down is a myth.  Common humanity should prevail over the political theories of the middle classes.

Philippa Bond ● 2586d

"Yes, much of the provision should be left to the private sector."Doesn't that subsidise private landlords, via Housing Benefit?

David Ainsworth ● 2585d

We're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't.   

Philippa Bond ● 2585d

Well, Iraq and Syria are rather different situations. One came after the other, which maybe affected our decisions. Still, we have been involved in Syria, in various ways. Airstrikes, supplies, and the presence, allegedly, of special forces, training and fighting. Telegraph, 30 September 2014:- "SAS and American special forces are working with Kurdish fighters on the Iraqi front lines as part of a major offensive to push Isil jihadists back and relieve pressure on the besieged Syria town of Kobane, senior Kurdish military officers have disclosed."

David Ainsworth ● 2585d

Definitely affected our decisions.  War is dangerous and unpopular.  With Iraq there seemed to have been no plan made for what would happen in afterwards. We can stay out as much as we can but we should also bear in mind Martin Niemoller's poem.

Philippa Bond ● 2585d

Indeed we should Philippa :-(

Lucille Grant ● 2585d

11 October 2019https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/10044802.article?And the first two lines of that article are:"Innovative council housing schemes such as the RIBA Stirling Prize-winning Goldsmith Street could be stymied by a hike in the interest rate for local government borrowing, critics have warned"

Philippa Bond ● 2584d

So the notorious 'opportunity cost' raises its head, which implies that not charging a full market rent is somehow an unacceptable 'loss'. I guess that would see off free NHS health care and state education, etc.

Peter Evans ● 2583d

Housing benefit no more 'subsidises' landlords that any other benefit payment 'subsidises' Sainsbury's or any other shop that a benefit recipient spends money in.

Peter Evans ● 2583d