Forum Topic

Why we should stay in the EU

Here's a challenge for the Brexiteers here: let's see if they can produce a list like the one below, but showing the benefits that they imagine Brexit will bring. Our EU membership has given us...▪️ The longest unbroken period of peace in European history▪️ Freedom for UK citizens to visit, work, live and retire in the EU, own property, open bank accounts and set up companies there.▪️ Single market and customs union underpinning over £600 billion in trade▪️ Free trade deals with over 70 countries▪️ Just in time manufacturing that supports millions of jobs, thanks to no customs checks or complex procedures▪️ Scientific and academic collaboration▪️ Shared space exploration▪️ Participation in the Galileo GPS satellite cluster▪️ Driving licenses valid all over the EU▪️ Car insurance valid all over the EU▪️ Pet passports to make travel with pets simple▪️ Simplified fixed compensation scheme for flight delays and cancellations▪️ European Health Insurance Card (EHIC)▪️ Mobile roaming (calls, texts and data) at home prices▪️ Portable streaming services (can watch Netflix etc. all over the EU)▪️ Erasmus student exchange programme▪️ Simplified VAT reverse charge mechanism for those selling across the EU▪️ Safer food▪️ Cleaner beaches▪️ Courses for the unemployed funded by the European Social Fund▪️ Disaster relief funding e.g. the 60 million euro we received for flood relief in 2017▪️ Free movement for musicians and instruments, bands and equipment, artists and materials etc.▪️ Enhanced environmental protections▪️ Court of last resort (ECJ)▪️ Security cooperation and sharing of crime/terrorist databases▪️ EURATOM for medical isotopes▪️ Service providers (e.g. freelance translators) can offer their services to clients all over the EU▪️ No UK VAT or duty on imports from the EU (great for online shopping)▪️ EU citizenship (it's a thing - look it up!)▪️ Cross-border collaboration on taxes, e.g. to hold huge firms like Amazon and Facebook to account more than we otherwise could▪️ Venture capital funding▪️ A bigger presence on the world stage as a key part of the largest trade block in the world▪️ Use of EU queues at ports and airports▪️ Products made or grown in the UK can be sold in 31 countries without type approval, customs duties, phytosanitary certificates etc.▪️ Protection from GM food and chlorinated chicken▪️ Objective 1 funding for deprived areas▪️ Financial services passport, enabling firms in the City to service the whole EU market▪️ Strong intellectual property protections▪️ Baseline of worker protections (which we can always improve on)▪️ Enhanced medical research▪️ A friend to cosy up to against the might of the USA and China▪️ Source of workers, making an important contribution to our NHS, construction, hospitality and dozens of other sectors... and many more. [Thanks due to Edwin Hayward for compiling this list.]

Richard Carter ● 2549d37 Comments

Twitter Legend lol 😸

Sue Hammond ● 2549d

So predictable: a trade mark Hammond sneer and no attempt to engage with the argument.

Richard Carter ● 2549d

What on earth did you expect? Easy to dish it out but a little more challenging to provide a constructive response. But then I suppose, to be fair, there isn't one. Apart, of course, for anti-democrats blah blah, liberal elites... blah blah... out means out blah bla... people with silver spoons blah blah... lefties blah blah... the people voted to leave blah blah... etc etc.

Freddie Francis ● 2549d

Not forgetting 'Brexit means Brexit'...

Lucille Grant ● 2549d

Indeed.I think Brexiters have a special phrase book, not very comprehensive, obviously, as the available wordage appears very limited and which is primarily comprised of insults and terms like 'you lost we won', 'suck it up loser' and so on. It's a useful book that is referred to at every opportunity when avoiding the tricky business of justifying their principled stand.

Freddie Francis ● 2549d

Richard: You're on the wrong track. Argument doesn't figure. In that quarter, prejudice is the name of the game.

Alexander MacLeod ● 2549d

Prejudice, conjecture and mostly perception.  The leavers won't (and can't, for their own sake) be drawn into a factual debate because their belief would disappear into a puff of logic.

John Gorst ● 2549d

Someone commented that Brexit is a form of religion, a belief founded on  nothing that can be demonstrated and which is held all the more strongly for that. What I was hoping to show (or rather, allow the Brexiteers to show) was that there were no rational arguments for it. And sure enough, Sue Hammond jumps in with both feet to do precisely that. The sheer bone-headed predictability of it takes the breath away!

Richard Carter ● 2549d

"And sure enough, Sue Hammond jumps in with both feet to do precisely that. The sheer bone-headed predictability of it takes the breath away!"And sure enough, Richard Carter jumps in with his even bigger mouth to post another insult. The sheer nastiness of this bitter Remoaner takes the breath away!

Sue Hammond ● 2549d

SH: Some nerve to complain to Richard about insults. And please don't complain about nastiness, either. Mirror, mirror....…

Alexander MacLeod ● 2549d

Spot on Alexander. She's only too happy to dish it out but when she's on the receiving end she turns into ... a snowflake! 🙀🙀🙀

Richard Carter ● 2549d

Hello Richard,This is a long and very coherent listing of reasons why we should remain in the EU.Regrettably, it has been my experience that having such conversations with Brexiteers lead you nowhere.Somebody mentioned something along the lines of Brexit being a religion.  I can vouch for that.  Sadly.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2549d

No. It's best to keep it basic and use the kiddy picture stuff 🙂

Michael Ixer ● 2548d

Brilliant, Michael! Meanwhile, the government has confirmed that it has no plans to assess the economic impact of Johnson's deal:"Brexit Secretary Stephen Barclay said last month he would 'expect' an economic impact assessment to be carried out 'at some point.'" But the government said there is no 'date for an economic impact assessment to take place' in a response to a Freedom of Information request. https://www.businessinsider.com/government-has-no-plans-for-economic-assessment-of-brexit-deal-2019-11Astonishing! They're blundering into a major change without having any idea what the consequences are. Irresponsible or what?

Richard Carter ● 2548d

"Astonishing! They're blundering into a major change without having any idea what the consequences are. Irresponsible or what?"O ye of little faith."Trust in me, just in meShut your eyes and trust in meYou can sleep safe and soundKnowing I am around"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg_SGsa_NWY

David Ainsworth ● 2548d

France - riots & demos every weekend for the past year, and huge problems with migrants on the streetsSpain - rioting after jailing of politicianItaly - national debt now 130% of GDPSweden - bombs going off regularlyGermany - In recession and much national unrest due to migrants issuesGreece - still bust and being propped up(None of the above covered by the BBC who are trying to paint the EU as all rosy in the garden)Euro - Collapse inevitableThe EU's a basket caseFor every 1M we put in we get 30% back in rebate. A very expensive membership.How far do you want political union to go until we have no sovereignty left?Guy Verhofstadt wants further integration and wants to take even more powers from all EU countries. He has said this on record.If we keep handing over more and more powers to Brussels parliament will become a museum.The runaway corrupt undemocratic gravy train has to stop before it drags us down too.Let's get Brexit done.

Paul Game ● 2548d

"(None of the above covered by the BBC who are trying to paint the EU as all rosy in the garden)"Just used Google - the BBC turns up with each of your 8 topics. I know - how dare they?!

David Ainsworth ● 2548d

And that's it? As David Ainsworth has already pooiinted out, all your point have in fact been covered by the BBC (and by many other news outlets). But in any case, so what? Such things are happening anyway: we're supposed to be leaving the EU, not Europe.On the other points, further political integration has already been ruled out, so the sovereignty issue does not arise.The most foolish point is about the supposed "runaway corrupt undemocratic gravy train." The "undemocratic" point has long and repeatedly been demolished (FullFacts - the real fact finder, not the lying, cheating Con version from last night - sets it out clearly enough for the most extreme Brexiteer at https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-democracy/). But far worse is the claim about corruption: a rich claim indeed, considering the level of corruption in London. A recent report by Transparency International analyses more than 400 corruption and money laundering cases – amounting to an estimated £325 billion.  "groundbreaking new research ... sheds fresh light on the role played by UK services and institutions in the biggest corruption scandals of recent decades." http://www.transparency.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/TIUK_AtYourService_BIBLIOGRAPHY.pdf

Richard Carter ● 2548d

Yes, you may find these stories hidden away on the BBC website but the main BBC news channels are not covering these important topics.The general public are none the wiser.It's all part of the pro EU bias from the elites that control broadcasting in this country.Exactly why I won't watch this bias news channel myself.Andrew Neil who is probably the only impartial BBC journalist has been talking about the Sweden bombings on twitter. He is amazed that the MSM aren't talking about it.Wonder why? 🤔

Paul Game ● 2548d

How far do you want political union to go until we have no sovereignty left?The governments Brexit white paper from February 2017. Page 14: ‘The sovereignty of Parliament is a fundamental principle of the UK constitution. Whilst Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that.’https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/589191/The_United_Kingdoms_exit_from_and_partnership_with_the_EU_Web.pdf

Clare Noeken ● 2547d

Perhaps he knows more about it than most. His wife is Swedish.

Clare Noeken ● 2547d

I agree, Andrew has more of an interest in Sweden if his wife is Swedish, but the reason all these stories are being ignored by the BBC and the MSM around Europe is because the policy of mass uncontrolled immigration hasn't worked and the liberal press are now trying to cover up the governments mistakes by burying the negative news stories.Unfortunately the culture clashes will never go away.

Paul Game ● 2547d

What abaaat all dem EU rules and our sovrenty!!?Jim Grace took a fun look back over 30 years at all 89 judgements against Her Majesty's British Gov forced on us by dem Krauts.  My grandad didn't fight in the war for this right? Or did he?Ehttps://twitter.com/mac_puck/status/1093158790394978304

Sarah Roberts ● 2547d

Well said Paul.

Karen Taylor ● 2547d

Mr GameAt least you are honest.The reason you seem to want to leave the EU is that immigration (presumably from the Middle East and Africa) will cause social disorder and violence.To misquote Clinton - 'It's Islamic immigration stupid'.Let's hope the Conservative Party's new immigration policy takes this into account.

John Hawkes ● 2547d

Mr Carter,We all know that Ms Hammond is incapable of putting forward any rational, fact based argument on any topic.However we should not deny her the pleasure she gets from posting bilious, playground level taunts, jibes and insults, providing she does not get too personal.We do live in a country where freedom of expression is in the main sacrosanct - for snowflakes and their opposites.

John Hawkes ● 2547d

Ms NoekenIs this the same sovereign Parliament that Johnson illegally prorogued and now accuses of standing in the way of the will of the British people over Brexit by their wishing to examine, as is surely their right as a sovereign Parliament, the fine detail of his marvelous Withdrawal Agreement ?

John Hawkes ● 2547d

SarahIt is exactly this type of mocking of the working class person / white van man etc that has lead to Brexit so give yourself a pat on the backYou are the perfect example of why people voted leaveOr was that an impression of Rees Mogg?You rude twerp

Emarisa Battoia ● 2547d

Notice that he didn't mention the UK were one of the first European countries giving women the right to work, or one of the first giving a minimum wage, or the first to have a national health service, or one of the first to be compassionate enough to have social housing and welfare? OR having clean water supplies stopping the need for bottled water, OR introducing a single use plastic ban before other countries. Of course not, that would be talking the UK up. No we should not leave the EU but please don't judge people who voted leave or mock them, and stop thinking that the UK would not look after itself without the EU!

Emarisa Battoia ● 2547d

No, this is a mocking of the kind of thick, lazy, bigotry of whatever class of fool who can't be arsed to look beyond the pages of the Daily Mail like my retired neighbour, black cab driver, this morning.  I got an hour long debate, or rather a one hour tirade about not trusting the Germans, World War Two...desperate to pick a fight with me about it but I gave him the floor in the hope he would give me just one good reason for leaving the EU...At least he didn't say he fancied Daniel Hanan which is possibly the worst reason I've heard for someone justifying they voted to leave the EU or "my husband told me to".  Three years and still no justifiable, quantifiable good reason for Brexit. Tired of it all.  Fed up with the impact Brexit has already had on my family and our livelihood.

Sarah Roberts ● 2547d

Sarah, thick people can speak properly too. They don't all talk with a working class cockney accent, that was my point.

Emarisa Battoia ● 2547d

I have looked into many of your points and in fairness to you they are all ongoing issues in Europe.You won’t get any joy posting on this pro EU forum but I appreciate you putting across an alternative but fair view point. You are correct in saying that the BBC and British media don’t cover most of these subjects or issues as they are peddling their own agenda.I hope we are not becoming like China and only putting info out there to the general public that we want them to see.

Mike Essam ● 2547d

I thought the question was asking for reasons for the UK to leave the EU, not on other countries' problems....There again, we have so many in the UK that perhaps those in other countries are just mere drops in the ocean

Ivonne Holliday ● 2547d

@ Sarah I would assume Mervyn King, in all probability, would read papers other than the Mail, and in all possibility would enunciate correctly.  There again I could be completely wrong.  My husband's often used expression to me was 'never ever assume anything'

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2546d

@Sarah  So sorry. I was assuming that you knew that Mervyn King, former Governor of The Bank of England is a hard-core Brexiteer. Perhaps my husband had a point.  I shouldn't make assumptions

Barbara Shillabeer ● 2546d

"You are correct in saying that the BBC and British media don’t cover most of these subjects or issues as they are peddling their own agenda."So do you reject their anti-Corbyn agenda? --------------------------------------"Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!Let's call the whole thing off!"

David Ainsworth ● 2546d

I wonder what his Finnish wife thinks about his Brexit-supporting stance.

Clare Noeken ● 2546d