Forum Topic

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

This seems to be a hotch potch of legislation encompassing knife crime, crimes against children, driving offences, sentencing limits, etc and associated sentencing limits as well as extending  the restrictions on protests or tearing down statues. I suppose the problem with this sort of legislation is that one might agree with parts of it but not others. That is possibly behind the reason for Labour initially considering abstaining. However, it seems to be a poor bit of legislation - tearing down a statue might become a more serious offence than those against the person in some instances according to some commentators. 

Michael Ixer ● 2065d26 Comments

I agree Michael, it does seem like very a confused mixture of things and apparently the document is 300 pages long...  Rather frightening I think.  As Lucille said in another thread, do we want a police state?

Ivonne Holliday ● 2065d

I must admit I've not read it, Ivonne, but I have skimmed some extracts around the police powers regarding protests and they seem very draconian. Interestingly, its been pointed out that the original Covid legislation did allow for peaceful protests provided they were coordinated with the police. That provision was withdrawn in later versions of the legislation following the BLM protests last summer. Essentially, the police have been dropped in it by the government. However, police outside London seem to have attended other vigils without any violence and it's also been pointed out that Scottish police seemed to manage some football crowds last week without causing a riot. So it looks like the Met police didn't help themselves given the sensitivity of the situation but obviously none of us were there so it's difficult to be sure.It looks like the new bill could put the police in a similar position of deciding which protests to break up. Protests may be a nuisance at times but isn't that the price of a free democracy?

Michael Ixer ● 2065d

The bill also allows the home sec to decide if the bill needs toughening up later without it needing to go to parliament.Yet another example of parliament being excluded from the decision making process.Democracy?

Matt Palmer ● 2065d

The Bill also promulgates the idea that longer sentences will result in less crime. Many crimes, especially violent crimes are impulsive. It would also make more sense if Prisons were better equipped to carry out rehabilitation work with prisoners, and if Probation Officers were better trained and resourced to provide supervison on release. A complete rethinking of the whole criminal justice system is needed, rather than coming out with a rag-bag set of measures as in this bill.

Caroline Whitehead ● 2065d

"Is there anything more deserving of protest than a plan to infringe the right to protest?"Hugh Laurie

Ed Robinson ● 2065d

"Prison works".  Michael Howard when Home Sec back in the 1990s.  Not true then and not true now.  Yes it works in the sense that the criminal is off the streets but then what? Rehabilitation in prison works better but they do far too little of that and too many prisoners are released with no home or accommodation to go to, no money and a wait for benefits.  So they resort to crime.  Again.  Sadly this cycle repeats ad nauseam.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2065d

I heard it suggested that we wanted to be like Singapore.  Do we?

Philippa Bond ● 2065d

I heard it suggested that we wanted to be like Singapore.  Do we?"Philippa they do have a constitution, low crime, low corruption and great food :). Considering they only gained Independence in 1965 and their resources I think they have down exceptionally well."with corruption generally perceived as one of the lowest in the world.[3] In 2020 Transparency International ranked it as the world's third least corrupt country and as the most transparent in Asia."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Singapore

Ed Robinson ● 2064d

"The only place in Singapore where outdoor public assemblies do not require police permits (for citizens) is at the Speakers' Corner, similar to Hyde Park, London. However, foreigners still require a permit to speak at the park, and one must still register one's personal details with the National Parks Board online before speaking or protesting at the Speakers' corner, and there are also many surveillance cameras in the park, a situation that some Singaporeans and Singaporean MPs have commented on."mmmmmmmm

Matt Palmer ● 2064d

Matt if you have been to Singapore then you realise the place is tiny.Yes the Singaporeans are fearful of foreign interference. I tried to find out how long it would take to get to their second airport which wasn't on the map and noone would tell me. Turns out it was a military airport with some commercial flights.I didn't say it was perfect Matt but for a tiny state that is younger than me will very little resources in is very remarkable.With regards to CCTV London is ranked 3rd and Singapore 30+London, England (UK) – 627,727 cameras for 9,304,016 people = 67.47 cameras per 1,000 people.https://www.comparitech.com/vpn-privacy/the-worlds-most-surveilled-cities/

Ed Robinson ● 2064d

I'm not sure what the bill says about sentences for rapists and stalkers (it's hundreds of pages long, which hardly helps), but campaigners are calling for increased minimum sentences for these crimes. That's one thing, but the real problem is the appallngly low conviction rates: the FT in an editorial today points out that, although reports of rape in England and Wales more than trebled to 55,130 in the seven years to March 2020, rape prosecutions halved in three years to just 1,439 in 2019-20, the lowest figure on record. That's truly shocking, and priority is vital to ensure a higher rate of prosecutions and convictions, so perpetrators fear they run a real risk of being caught, and women feel the justice system gives them proper protection

Richard Carter ● 2064d

But at least it's getting tough on one thing: under it, the maximum sentence for defacing monuments will increase from three months to 10 years. Madness!

Richard Carter ● 2064d

Hi Ed, I have been to Singapore and I agree it's very nice.Was just pointing out that if even the residents aren't free to protest then the state has curtailed what we (currently) see as an essential part of a free democracy.

Matt Palmer ● 2064d

Total madness, while rape convictions carry 5 year sentences....

Ivonne Holliday ● 2064d

A rape conviction can lead to a life sentence, 5 years is the starting point.  I agree 10 years (a maximum) is excessive for damaging a statue or a war memorial but long (i.e. life) sentences for rape have long been on the statute book.The problem is the conviction rate, as Richard has just pointed out.The criminal justice system is in crisis thanks to Covid and the massive cuts of the austerity years.  I was a magistrate from 2005 to 2019 and saw just what damage was being done to efficient and speedy justice.  Just one example: the cuts to legal aid meant more defendants were forced to defend themselves, a process that slows down trials to the extent that they can take days rather than hours - a self-defeating measure if ever there was one!As an illustration of what is happening to our justice system I suggest you follow this link https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1371030760501747712

Jonathan Callaway ● 2064d

I have read both the most recent books by the secret barrister and can confirm it's an absolute sh1tshow, perpetrated by many different governments over the years.Happy to lend them to any people who want to know more

Matt Palmer ● 2064d

Indeed.  The cuts started when Blair was still PM.  Got far worse after 2010 though, culminating in the Grayling era (mercifully short).  Even his successor, Gove, agreed and rolled back his most stupid changes.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2064d

I guess Singapore traded freedom for a prosperous and regulated life style. I've not been there, a friend of mine did a 24 hourstopover there in the early 70s on his way from India to Australia. He had to stay in the airport all the time, he wasn't allowed out because he had long hair, no way I'd have got in. (Actually, after a year of lockdowns, etc, I'd probably be banned now!)

Michael Ixer ● 2064d

There's a good discussion of this by Rachel Sylvester in The Times today (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-need-tougher-laws-to-make-them-safe-v7d2hz7wl).It's behind their paywall, so I'll include a couple of paragraphs:Vandals who damage war memorials face up to ten years in jail: double the five year sentence given last month to a man who strangled his wife to death. There is nothing in the government’s proposed legislation to increase jail terms for domestic homicide, which is at its highest level since 2016, or to address the fact that rape convictions have fallen to a record low.Dame Vera Baird QC, the victims’ commissioner for England and Wales, has warned of a “decriminalisation of rape” and suggested that many women now “regard the streets as lawless when it comes to male behaviour”. Although police recorded 55,130 rapes in 2019-20, there were only 2,102 prosecutions and 1,439 convictions in England and Wales — less than 3 per cent.Baird fears that a clause in the crime bill, which gives additional powers to the police to download mobile phone data, may make matters worse by discouraging rape victims from pursuing cases for fear that their sexual history will be used to discredit them.

Richard Carter ● 2064d

It seems a bad law in that it didn't distinguish between, for example, a BLM protest that gets out of hand and trashes a statue of a racist in the heat of the moment  from some bored youth who aimlessly vandalism a war memorial? I'm not sure prison is effective in either case: in the first case, apart from possibly creating martyrs provoking more demos it's just going to build up more resentment and further the belief that the UK in institutionally racist among certain communities; in the second case, a long community service order helping restoring monuments would seem of more benefit to both the community and the offenders?

Michael Ixer ● 2064d

"a long community service order helping restoring monuments would seem of more benefit to both the community and the offenders?"Depends upon which monuments they were ordered to restore.

David Ainsworth ● 2064d

"Depends upon which monuments they were ordered to restore".And whether there were people available to supervise them properly.

Caroline Whitehead ● 2064d

A community punishment of unpaid work in the community was a good sentencing option for a lot of the stuff I dealt with as a magistrate, but supervision is an essential part of making it effective - including timekeeping, penalties for non-compliance etc.  The damage Grayling did to the Probation Service has still not been fully reversed so this sentencing option has become almost toothless.I recall a story from some years ago about a team of unpaid workers whose job was to replant flowers in a roundabout.  Supervision was clearly inadequate - when the flowers blossomed they spelt the word BO**OCKS (without the asterisks!).  You had to admire (silently of course, as a mag) their initiative not to mention the accurate spelling.

Jonathan Callaway ● 2064d

"You had to admire (silently of course, as a mag) their initiative not to mention the accurate spelling."And their longterm planning and their patience. Hopefully, it augurs well for their futures.----------------------"The ability to delay gratification is essential to self-regulation, or self-control."

David Ainsworth ● 2064d

The Bill has just passed its 2nd reading.

Sue Hammond ● 2063d

Still not to worry, we're not the only country that has become an anocracy recently, if that is the correct term.

Ed Robinson ● 2063d