Forum Topic

Save our Heritage - Please sign this petition on change.org

Sorry this isn’t to do with Putney or London, but if you care about this country’s heritage, please could you sign the following Petition on change.org: “Rebuild the Crooked House at the Black Country Museum” The Crooked House is Britain’s wonkiest pub and Grade II Listed.  Recently it was sold to the developers by Marstons.  It has just suffered a terrible fire.  Firemen found their route to the pub obstructed. I am not sure if I can say what I think about this on a public forum, but I hope that the pub will be rebuilt as it was before. Thank you

Martine Guy ● 1188d50 Comments

Hello Martine,Do you happen to have the link to the petition, by any chance?I am not too sure that the pub can be rebuilt as it was before but I also find I cannot express my thoughts freely here.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1188d

https://www.change.org/p/rebuild-the-crooked-house-at-the-black-country-living-museum?source_location=search

Martine Guy ● 1188d

Thanks for your reply, Ivonne.  I hope the link works. The Mayor of the West Midlands says “questions need answering” and it is a “tragedy”.  I think we take our old pub buildings for granted, when they give so much character to our high streets and neighbourhoods.

Martine Guy ● 1188d

Signed!! :-) :-)

Ivonne Holliday ● 1188d

Thanks for signing, Ivonne. Former Labour MP for Dudley, Lord Ian Austin urged the emergency services to “investigate and prosecute”. If we can’t get an 18th Century Grade II Listed Building rebuilt, then I despair for our heritage.

Martine Guy ● 1188d

Signed.https://www.itv.com/news/central/2023-08-06/fire-destroys-historic-crooked-house-pub-just-days-after-it-was-sold

Michael Ixer ● 1188d

Thanks Michael. According to latest news, after trading for nearly 200 years, the pub has been demolished and now all that remains is rubble.  Let us hope this doesn’t become a lesson in how to destroy our country’s heritage.  

Martine Guy ● 1188d

Is there any point in saving a pub with no customers, or insufficient to make it a going concern. Will be interesting if building control allow the rebuild with the structural fault that caused the crooked state.Always a shame when a building or a business is lost. But from the business side they usually close through lack of support.

Andy Pike ● 1188d

Andy. I'm sure for reasons discussed on another thread it isn't sustainable as a pub. But as one of my FB friends said, how unfortunate? Let the new owner rebuild it otherwise why did they buy it; it was presumably sold as seen so they must have appreciated its quirkyness? 

Michael Ixer ● 1188d

Until the name of the buyers is revealed and their intentions for the now empty site are known, and until the fire and the obstruction of the access road are fully investigated, not much can be done.   I think it’s another old building that has been taken for granted and it is a loss to our heritage.  I hope it gets rebuilt brick by brick.  

Martine Guy ● 1188d

I like this story https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/local-hubs/black-country/2023/08/07/band-with-unfortunate-name-responds-to-awful-coincidence-over-cancelled-crooked-house-gig/?fbclid=IwAR0CoBnh2l_qrmn1wqFwDkTjrR07xSPolhlIRa8k5D-X0vhzhKEsUCP4v2M#ll0w3745yczliex2c7

Michael Ixer ● 1188d

@Martine 10.38A very convenient fire indeed. Reeks of arson to get round planning laws. It would be interesting to know if any previous planning applications had been refused? If so any redevelopment other than a rebuild of the pub should be blocked for 25 years.

Sue Hammond ● 1188d

Sue, good to have you back on the Forum. I read through Mail Online comments and someone said this happened in their home town. I think that’s really all I wish to say on a public Forum at the moment, but everyone is jumping to the same conclusion including me! We take our old buildings a bit too much for granted and then moan when they get replaced by a block of flats.

Martine Guy ● 1188d

I can't see any value in the site of the pub except as an extension of the surrounding landfill and waste disposal.

David Ainsworth ● 1188d

Then you must have a very stunted imagination David.

Sue Hammond ● 1187d

@Martine P.S. Petition signed.

Sue Hammond ● 1187d

Thanks for signing, Sue.  I believe the local Council have confirmed the demolition took place without permission. I’ve been reading the 800+ comments on Mail Online, and people are overwhelmingly in favour of prosecution of whoever did this and that whoever it is, be made to rebuild. One comment made me chuckle: ”It does not require Hercule Poirot or Miss Marple to work this one out” To which someone replied “or even the Secret Seven”!

Martine Guy ● 1187d

Yes it was painfully obvious what had happened and I hope the owner/developer is prosecuted.  However even if they are ordered to rebuild the pub it won't be the same because all of its historical value has been destroyed.

Sue Hammond ● 1187d

Can an owner demolish their property without permission from the local authority?

David Ainsworth ● 1187d

Latest news is that a married couple have owned the Crooked House since July.  The husband is a shareholder and former director of the landfill site next door.  There were disagreements between the landfill site and Marstons Brewery in the past over shared access, evidently.

Martine Guy ● 1187d

If the pub was ordered to be rebuilt it wouldn't be the fitst.  I remember there was one in Kilburn illegally demolished that that happened to.

Philippa Bond ● 1187d

@Martine 23.26Thankyou for the update. Well it looks like David was probably right about the buyer's motivations in buying the pub. I really hope the local Council refuses to approve any further applications from this person.

Sue Hammond ● 1187d

Thanks, Ms Hammond. It could be so. I first read a story of a sudden demolition 50 years ago. A 500 year old farm house (not listed), in Wheathampstead, destroyed early on Cup Final Day, despite the local authority trying to protect it.And 40 years ago, I was shocked and saddened by the destruction of the Firestone Factory (Great West Road) before it could be listed:-https://historicengland.org.uk/whats-new/debate/recent/interim-protection/pre-emptive-demolition-interim-protection/

David Ainsworth ● 1187d

From the online comments in the press, there seem to be quite a few old buildings around the country being burnt down to be replaced by a block of flats.  Maybe it’s time for the government to consider generous tax breaks for retrofit.  (I know The Crooked House site isn’t one suitable for flats).
The Crooked House wasn’t listed as many thought.  Listing had been applied for one week before the fire but whatever the decision, it was too late to save the old building from destruction.  I suggest also that the government bring in a law to give protection to buildings whilst applications for Listing are considered.  This seems to be a time when buildings are vulnerable. By the way, in the online comments, people have been asking who owned the bulldozer/digger that was used.  Evidently it’s not easy to order such a piece of equipment at short notice.   I don’t think it was Bob the Builder!

Martine Guy ● 1186d

The husband is the boss of a plant hire firm.  Gosh!

Martine Guy ● 1186d

Police are now treating it as arson ...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-65141057

Michael Ixer ● 1186d

@Martine"The husband is the boss of a plant hire firm.  Gosh!"Well I didn't see that one coming ...

Sue Hammond ● 1186d

Good!

Sue Hammond ● 1186d

I hope she gets prosecuted too!Revealed: Glamorous businesswoman who bought 'Britain's wonkiest pub'https://mol.im/a/12389385

Sue Hammond ● 1186d

Yes me too, Sue. 
I am not from that part of the West Mids. and have never visited the pub, although I had heard about it.  But I’d like to mention that when I was reading articles on The Crooked House, someone mentioned is a bad day for Dudley as their Art Deco Hippodrome theatre is under demolition too.  Really it’s a disgrace how some people take our lovely or quirky old buildings for granted.  I think it’s too easy to demolish and that retrofit should be carried out where possible and if the local community wants it. By the way, The Crooked House is the title of an Agatha Christie who dunnit.

Martine Guy ● 1186d

It was arson, so shouldn't think anything will be done soon.

Barbara Stevens ● 1186d

According to The Times today, the new owners of The Crooked House “had bought and allegedly gutted another traditional pub, near their home in Warwickshire”.  A resident said The Country Inn at the tiny village of Willey  “was the heart of the community ….now it is just four walls and looks like it is waiting to fall down.  It is devastating.”

Martine Guy ● 1186d

Similarly, the Telegraph is reporting that the owners hired the digger used to demolish the pub several days before the fire. You don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to smell a very bad rat there.

Richard Carter ● 1185d

I think the public reaction is amazing.   Even Pam Ayers has written a poem:
The Crooked House, The Crooked House Somehow caught alight The Crooked House, mysteriously Bulldozed in the night Little wonky pub, where folk forgot about their trouble, Funny and familiar And flat Reduced to rubble.

Martine Guy ● 1185d

It all stinks - as some would say, to kingdom come!!  Forget about very bad rats.It would be an insult if the new owners get away with it. I wonder if they are hoping to put a "sky scraper" of flats there pretending they will be affordable flat - at £1m each!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1185d

Ivonne, I don’t think you could build flats there because of the mining works under the site.  It was originally a farmhouse, which it still looked like on the exterior, but later became a pub when the subsidence happened. David Ainsworth’s theory is probably the correct one. Really pleased to hear people asking for more protection for our old pubs and other old buildings. 

Martine Guy ● 1185d

I am not too sure you cannot build flats there.But you hit the nail in the head when you say there are mining works under the site.As far as I am aware, architects can find a way of building or creating foundations above this..... I am being a cynic to the xxx power, but I would not put it past them (meaning the developers).What I do know is the fire and subsequent demolition of the building is, well, suspect?I very much doubt that the piece of land is "earmarked" for farming....

Ivonne Holliday ● 1185d

Andy Street, the Conservative Mayor of the West Midlands, is angry at what has happened and says it makes your blood boil.  What I want now is action from our politicians so that this can’t be repeated all over the country, not just with pubs but other old buildings.  Words are easy but could the government actually do something.

Martine Guy ● 1185d

I am truly sorry, Martine!Our of my own experience, whenever there are developers involved, they always win....However painful it is us.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1185d

Ivonne, no need to apologise, unless your a ruthless property developer!  I don’t think they get their way all the time.   Look at M&S Marble Arch.

Martine Guy ● 1185d

There is a precedent for this kind of abuse: the Carlton pub in Maida Vale was demolished illegally some years ago, and a judge ordered it to be rebuilt, brick by brick. Hopefully, that will happen in this case too.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9458593/London-pub-illegally-demolished-rebuilt-open-time-six-years-tomorrow.html

Richard Carter ● 1185d

I hope so too, Richard.

Martine Guy ● 1185d

Also locally:-https://www.standard.co.uk/reveller/bars/developer-must-rebuild-demolished-alchemist-pub-in-battersea-10377526.htmlRebuilt, but not in use (?).

David Ainsworth ● 1185d

2 men have been arrested.

Barbara Stevens ● 1171d

Yes, I heard that too.  I think there will be a lot more to come out on the story. I see local volunteers are blocking the route to the site, round the clock, to stop any vehicles getting through to clear the site.   Evidently the foundations remain intact. The story of this little pub in The Black Country has received huge news coverage, there’s even been an article in The New York Times.

Martine Guy ● 1171d

This one can't be rebuilt.  As new building it would need to comply with Building Regulations. Which means level floors etc.

Andrew Catto ● 1170d

Andrew, did your comment about building regulations come from an article in The Architects Journal?   If so, it is part of the comments made by Prof. John R Bryson at Birmingham Business School and I think these should be quoted in full: “It’s demolition represents a major failure in this country’s approach to spatial damage and levelling up” he said.  “The Crooked House might be replaced with a modern structure that adds nothing to Himley’s unique place-based identity.  A highly distinctive building would then have been replaced with a conventional structure that could be found in any town or city”

Martine Guy ● 1169d

"This one can't be rebuilt.  As new building it would need to comply with Building Regulations. Which means level floors etc."Though it may be a crooked house in other, more modern ways:-"The average property now comes with as many as 157 defects, up by 96 per cent from 80 in 2005, according to specialists BuildScan. Over the same period, the price of the average new-build home has soared by 44 per cent to £340,936."https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-10258569/Our-new-build-nightmare-New-homes-average-157-defects.html"Floodplain development rose by 12 per cent in the past decade, according to the Climate Change Committee."We aren't going to make it.

David Ainsworth ● 1169d

The Crooked House story has now made it to The Washington Post.  I am putting it in capital letters because I think it is such a great headline to an article , that just about sums it up: ”THIS CROOKED HOUSE PUB WAS OLDER THAN THE U.S.  Why would someone burn it down?” “The 258 year old leaning pub of Himley went from historic landmark to rubble”. Great article, thank you The Washington Post.

Martine Guy ● 1169d

Sorry, I should have written the whole article in The Washington Post can be found online, as can the readers’ comments.  I just quoted part of the article that summed it all up. “Historic landmark to rubble”.   The local West Mids. Conservative, including Mayor Andy Street, seem to have plenty to say about it, but I can’t hear much from Labour.  In my opinion, it’s one of those those things that all the political parties should join together about. I agree with David’s comment.  

Martine Guy ● 1169d